dogsmilk wrote:
There you go with your 'buts' again.

I'll give you a clue, protesting has achieved jack shit.

Guevarista wrote:
The guy who thinks the mainstream has standards :p

andyh wrote: even the banking industry has standards, they don't always live up to them, but if you don't know their own standards how can you hold them to account?
It has to have an agreed upon set of standards to fulfill the designation mainstream, if it didn't you wouldn't get the NOTW empire in court for failing to live up to those standards, do you agree the mainstream has standards?

Guevarista wrote:
Depends whether you would consider its a standard worth upholding or just yet more strawman bollocks.

andyh wrote:
Will I would certainly critique protest, and different kinds of protest.

But ok.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitstop_Ploughshares

So these people expressed their protest in the form of direct action and sabotaged an aircraft that would be used to conduct war and then successfully argued in court their actions were justifiable.

Should they have avoided all this legal strife and instead simply have started their own business and pocketed the tax money?

I'm sure we all nkow of the McLibel case

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mclibel

So after London Greenpeace membersdecided to protest McDonalds, two of them - unemployed people who were apparently idiots because they'd totally failed to start their own successful business - defended themselves in the longest court case in English history and though they partially lost the case, brought up loads of dirt about McDonalds and got it confirmed in court at least some of what they were saying was right, despite having the full resouces of an enormous multinational pitched against them.

Would it have been better if they simply'd started their own business - perhaps some kind of burger van - and pocketed the tax money?

Jill Phipps tragically was killed after being crushed by a lorry while protesting against live exports of calves - the animals being sent in grim conditions to a horrible death abroad. However, the campaign did succeed instopping live exports from a number of Councils.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Phipps

Was Jill stupid to have gone out protesting and ended up sacrificing her life for something she believed in and instead should simply have started her own business and pocketed the tax money?

I've yet to see a protest that has led to the dismantling of the fractional reserve system and an end to 'war on drugs' 'war on terror' etc etc.
That would be a successful protest.

The rest is crumbs falling off the rich mans plate.

dogsmilk wrote:
Yes, she's dead just in case you hadn't noticed. I'm sure it really helps.

andyh wrote:
I've yet to see anyone cause the dismantling of the fractional reserve system and end the war on drugs and the war on terror by starting their own business and pocketing the tax money.

What's your point?

Dogsmilk there's no point even trying to communicate to any of these points he raises now.



Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION'

Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues. This is a critical and useful technique to cause a 'RESOURCE BURN.' By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a 'gossip mode.' In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in. It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to determine at what level to 'drive in the wedge.' By being too far off topic too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.

We need to address the issues in this article:
cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm

andyh wrote:
In case you hadn't noticed, she didn't mean that to happen.
I suppose in theory you could get run over by a car on the way to the bank to set up your business account. It's just that she got killed by an asshole driving a lorry. If you'd ever been out doing protest, you'd know some stuff can get dangerous. The point vis, she was out standing up for what she believed in.

Barry Horne did cause his own death. By hunger strike in prison in protest over vivsection. Which of course achieved nothing other than his martydom. Futile as it may have been, I'd myself see that as a far more powerful statement than starting your own business and pocketing the tax money. Maybe that's just a difference between us.

Guevarista wrote:
But can you confirm this is definitely not written by someone who posts on the DIF?

Why didn't he just start his own business and pocket the tax money?????

I'm sure somehow all the above is relevant to our cause so to speak.
You can set fire to yourself dogsmilk and see if it changes something, it'll make a powerful statement...of something or other.

Guevarista wrote:
Thinking about it though, I think there is a point.

Andy is correct in the suggestion that marching up and down waving banners tends to get you nowhere. After all, Blair totally ignored the largest protest in British history. It is correct protest gets you nowhere. I've slagged it off myself enough times.

But I would argue that while thinking protest gets you anywhere is a mistake, protest is a component. I know myself on general banner waving protests I've felt inspired, met new people who think the same things, felt a sense strangers out there feel the same concern, played the 'who can collect the most leaflets from different organisations' game.

This may be a bad thing for most people, but it's because of protest I'm here today. After encountering 911 truthers at Iraq war protests, leading to flirtation with the truth movement, leading to the DIF.

And of course "protest" encompasses direct action. Which also may not get you anywhere. But it's all cumulative. Standing up and saying "fuck this - i'm doing something about it" - even if it's to hand out leaflets or something - will not change the wotld, but it can change you. The more people who do this, the more people feel they have a voice, the more they express themselves.

Andy would probably argue this mirrors his cvritical mass of small businesses thing - whereas I think that's just a lot of small businesses.

But the point is it's all things - co-ops are good, protest is good, producing propaganda is good, running naked down the highstreet shouting "fuck the war" is good (assuming you have the bottle - I certainly don't). No one thing will ever change anything - and it's rigid thinking to think this is the only way forward and anyone doing anything else is a wanker -because nothing is going to change things on its own. And we're all different. Some person might not want to start a co-op, but they're perfectly happy living in a tent at some protest site and vice versa. We are not all the same.

Well anyway. What about that Marx fella? I heard there was a thread about him or something. We've effectively driven off everyone but the three of us. But the thread has hundreds of views and is good traffic LOL.

So comrade, what about this fella? Where was this cat really at?

andyh wrote:
How about if I set fire to myself on Dragon's Den straight after Duncan Bannatyne has agreed to invest in my growing small business with the tax money quite literally in my pocket?

dogsmilk wrote:
lol!

dogsmilk wrote:
I'd rather you set fire to his money then stuff it back in his pants, lol.

andyh wrote:
Well I suppose in an ideal world I'd be giving them all a practical demonstration of my innovative new 'mancrisp-o-matic' flamethrower.

This is the core issue for me, if people in the truth movement refuse to accept the left vs right "paradigm" then what is the synthesis they create in their own heads:

“A lively new polemic about the concepts ‘one divides into two’ and ‘two fuse into one’ is unfolding on the philosophical front in this country. This debate is a struggle between those who are for and those who are against the materialist dialectic, a struggle between two conceptions of the world: the proletarian conception and the bourgeois conception. Those who maintain that ‘one divides into two’ is the fundamental law of things are on the side of the materialist dialectic; those who maintain that the fundamental law of things is that ‘two fuse into one’ are against the materialist dialectic. The two sides have drawn a clear line of demarcation between them, and their arguments are diametrically opposed. This polemic is a reflection, on the ideological level, of the acute and complex class struggle taking place in China and in the world.”

—Red Flag (Beijing), 21 September 1964

It's an evolutionary principle that leads to the idea of Permanent Revolution, hence "Scientific Socialism" and there is no such thing as "central authority" without opposition under Marxist theory.

We're like the boring guys at the party who have commandeered the au d'ouevres trey and are now being terribly boisterous discussing "boring" politics

Peace

is it possible that perfect democracy is in fact marx idea of socialism ?
given his almost phsychic predictions about constant financial collapses being a part of capitalism comming true it does seem that marx's studies in social science are inevitable
and an unavoidable path that capitalism and the unforseen at marx time spin offs seem determined to hold off ,

we could be witness to capitalisms redoubt ,
its last stand a united front of all in opposition to natural progressive social order .

anarcho syndicalism isnt going to achieve anywhere like 60million self employed thats a tory wet dream ,
national socialism is a fart in a lift a confined terror that only escape will cure ,
and capitalism is simply greed politicised ,
so what but an equal system could come to the fore ?
switch on tvs people worldwide are pissed off
they are ditching symbolic wealth for decent lifes for themselves and as a legacy for their children .

i think things will run a course pretty close to what marx hinted at .