Frog wrote: Show me where I have praised the EU superstate?
I'm not
I would disagree I would say representational democracy and the Capitalist world system are more of a root cause than a "minority of psycopaths".
Again i'd disagree, the rhetoric you get on the EU from the Daily Mail and Telegraph is akin to that you get from the column or british constitution group most people I speak to have opinions far less radical than any in this thread, the daily mail, column, truth movement etc.
Although I agree the streets aren't carnage I wouldn't say people express love and peace towards each other, I agree people are people but this includes their seemingly inherent tendency to think they are better than others, or to adhere to social structures that reinforce that delusion on a collective scale, ie British Monarchism etc.
I disagree I think arms suppliers, infrastructure rebuilding companies, utility companies, corporations thrive on conflict more than governments, that's why it's dangerous when Politicians with links to private companies assume office, ie the Bush Government.
Britain has never been harmonious, it's a society built upon class distinctions, evidence of that goes back as far as Wat Tyler and the great land clearances/"taking of the commons".

I disagree, the concepts of private property, profit, economics, divine succession, the corporation, imperialism are far more dangerous than the concept of government, in a lot of cases government has been effective in redressing the excesses of the aforementioned, and regulating and penalizing their psychopathic behavior.

dubmeup wrote: Really?? that's very uncritical imo.

I have no real criticism of the bits i quoted gue. I may have perhaps not said exactly the same and may have added a bit but pretty much it was a +1

Guevarista wrote:
That was your first post in this thread remember it? There are other tidbits in other posts which I can't be arsed to track down.

So what are you trying to say then? It's the government?

Representational Democracy is a myth along with the Capitalist world system. There is however a minority of psychopaths who have invested a great deal of time and effort in creating the illusion of such things. It's not an illusion which needs to be sustained once it has served it's purpose of sweetening the pill.

I guess that would depends on the pool of people you have to base your opinion on. The Mail and the Telegraph etc. only go so far and more and more people are becoming aware of that. Which is why the government is busy trying to bring the internet under its control!

People can only make informed decisions if they have been given good data from which their opinions may be formed. The government and the MSM spend their time pumping garbage into the information system deliberately! And they get exactly the results they aim for as a result.

Considering we have a State owned and run education system and other orgaisations such as religious groups who support that model it's hard to see how that is the fault of the population directly - it's built on years of indoctrination. The numbers that don't subscribe to that view are growing regardless of the claims by government and media.

I think that within the context of this thread which is the EU and the effect on the UK it's safe to say that the word government is associated with the Military, Industrial complex concept in general terms.

The divides have been created in the main for political gain by the ruling classes, regardless of historical period or setting. Which is exactly why the current governments maintain and create new divides in society.

I think that the end of the Second World War demonstrated that people could get along and could and would unite.

Greece, Italy and Spain all managed to establish alternative forms of government in the later part of the war. The British governments attacked Greece as a direct result of their Anarchist form of society for example.

The British people were brought off after the second world war with the welfare state and bs peace acclaims based on the UN etc. Following which the government busied itself with dismantling the country from within. The UK has never seen a decade of complete peace! All those social welfare carrots are now being replaced with sticks or totally absent!

I'm amazed that you can manage to separate all those things out from the influence of government! Government being a pretty generic term for current control system - which over time has had various masters holding different percentages of influence. Church, Monarchy, Industrialists and the Military have all shared grater or lesser positions of power. Various combinations of those were and are responsible for the conditions you mentioned above. For example how was imperialism divorced from government (politics) exactly?

Basically my angle is if government can serve all those illogical and tyrannical interests, it can serve the interests of redressing the imbalance created by those interests for the past few hundred years.

I would say imperialism is part of a deeper, racial, cultural prejudice, although yes imperialist aims were conducted by governments who's "citizens" had "rights", these rights were not universally applied regardless of culture, skin colour, language etc, you could say these events are equally attributable to the concept of "knowledge" or "nationalism" as to the concept of government imo.

Government doesn't automatically imply imperialism and empire building, capitalism doesn't imply slavery, being white doesn't imply racism, looking exclusively at the history and development of Government in Western Civilization however, one might think differently.

You still haven't shown me where I have praised the EU super­state?

I'm not alone in thinking it's undemocratic, a bureaucracy serving the interests of the European bourgeois/political classes, but political Union taking precedence over the queen, cooperation taking precedence over tribal isolationism, is at least a progression would you not agree?
Well you could just accept that nowhere have I "praised the EU superstate and publicly retract your slanderous statement?