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TOPIC: Churchills war, coward or what!

Churchills war, coward or what! 09 Mar 2014 23:58 #61

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Wise Haven wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of this fallacy.

OK, maybe the OP video was one of a "Holocaust Denier" but that does not mean that everything he says is without foundation.

Does the label "Holocaust Denier" make that person a Nazi?
If a Holocaust Denier that also happened to be a cancer research doctor exclude him from worldwide plaudits if he discovered the cure for cancer/ Or would people dismiss him out of hand?

This is clearly fallacious bollockery.

It sucks and definitely not worthy of SZ.

I think the point is more that it's pointless to hear what Irving has to say about Churchill because his views are inevitable and will always be loaded towards nazi sympathy. He may indeed be correct about numerous other unconnected issues, but that's not relevant.
It's a bit like asking Hitler what he thought about Jews & Gypsies. There are plenty of other people who could give a more balanced and objective answer.
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Churchills war, coward or what! 10 Mar 2014 00:38 #62

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Yep. Loads of evidence that Churchill was a prick and no need to go to Irving unless the whole point of going to Irving was "well he kinda told the truth about lots of other things too"
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Churchills war, coward or what! 10 Mar 2014 01:09 #63

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
The Night of the Long Knives (German: About this sound Nacht der langen Messer (help·info)), sometimes called Operation Hummingbird or, in Germany, the Röhm-Putsch, was a purge that took place in Nazi Germany between June 30 and July 2, 1934, when the Nazi regime carried out a series of political murders. Leading figures of the left-wing Strasserist faction of the Nazi Party, along with its figurehead, Gregor Strasser, were murdered, as were prominent conservative anti-Nazis (such as former Chancellor Kurt von Schleicher and Gustav Ritter von Kahr, who had suppressed Hitler's Beer Hall Putsch in 1923). Many of those killed were leaders of the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary brownshirts.

At least 85 people died during the purge, although the final death toll may have been in the hundreds, and more than a thousand perceived opponents were arrested.[2] Most of the killings were carried out by the Schutzstaffel (SS) and the Gestapo (Geheime Staatspolizei), the regime's secret police. The purge strengthened and consolidated the support of the Reichswehr for Hitler. It also provided a legal grounding for the Nazi regime, as the German courts and cabinet quickly swept aside centuries of legal prohibition against extra-judicial killings to demonstrate their loyalty to the regime. The Night of the Long Knives was a turning point for the German government. It established Hitler as "the supreme judge of the German people", as he put it in his July 13, 1934 speech to the Reichstag.
Forget about the war years, and the holocaust, and all that stuff...that was just a consequence of turning Germany into a dictatorship in a pretty bloody way.

Even the biggest supporter of Hitler cannot possibly deny this (although I’ve seen them try) because it is 100% fact. Once you’ve violently taken control of a country, dissolved the constitution and killed all your political opponents with no democratic mandate whatsoever, then you have do some pretty good stuff in my eyes for history to view you favourably!

I think it is true that Hitler was genuinely patriotic and also true that he genuinely believed the treatment of Germany after the First World War was unacceptable (which I agree with), and he may even genuinely have wanted to make Germany prosperous. But you cannot go about it like that and then expect history to view you in kindly fashion.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 10 Mar 2014 01:09 by wake_up_bomb.
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Churchills war, coward or what! 10 Mar 2014 14:35 #64

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Reading Mein Kampf is a rollercoaster read. Some times it's a case of "yeah, that sounds a good idea" but then it will quickly followed by a "Doh!" facepalm moment - "Hitler you dolt - you've gone and fucked it up again"
Essentially Hitler was a fucked up person, probably personaility disordered with very very very rare glimpses of genius. His political manoevres at home and abroad with other Heads of State in the run up to Sept 1939 showed an uncanny understanding of human weakness/vanity which he exploited at a level bordering on inspired genius.
To understand Hitler is to understand and second guess every other ambitious political leader - Hitler is a template and knowing him gives us an advantage recognising politicians of a similar ilk.

Disclaimer: I'm not a Nazi sympathizer - so don't even go there :D you naughty types.
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