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TOPIC: Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook

Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 09 Mar 2013 20:34 #1

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How Facebook could get you arrested

Smart technology and the sort of big data available to social networking sites are helping police target crime before it happens. But is this ethical?

Companies such as Facebook have begun using algorithms and historical data to predict which of their users might commit crimes.

The police have a very bright future ahead of them – and not just because they can now look up potential suspects on Google. As they embrace the latest technologies, their work is bound to become easier and more effective, raising thorny questions about privacy, civil liberties, and due process.

Full article is here:

www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/mar/0...geny-morozov-extract
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 09 Mar 2013 20:35 by wake_up_bomb.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 09 Mar 2013 20:45 #2

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Precrime, jesus.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 09 Mar 2013 21:04 #3

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andyh wrote:
Precrime, jesus.

Innit.

Between this and secret courts what chance of a future does anyone who opposes anything have?
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 09 Mar 2013 23:02 #4

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It's a great idea. If criminals are stupid enough to share what they're going to do before they do it...the police department would be trippin not to jump on that...
Call me by any name, any way it's all the same.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 09 Mar 2013 23:16 #5

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Night_Gaunt wrote:
It's a great idea. If criminals are stupid enough to share what they're going to do before they do it...the police department would be trippin not to jump on that...

:facepalm:
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 09 Mar 2013 23:27 #6

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Writing in The Police Chief magazine in 2009, a senior LAPD officer lauded Amazon's ability to "understand the unique groups in their customer base and to characterise their purchasing patterns", which allows the company "not only to anticipate but also to promote or otherwise shape future behaviour". Thus, just as Amazon's algorithms make it possible to predict what books you are likely to buy next, similar algorithms might tell the police how often – and where – certain crimes might happen again. Ever stolen a bicycle? Then you might also be interested in robbing a grocery store.

Here we run into the perennial problem of algorithms: their presumed objectivity and quite real lack of transparency. We can't examine Amazon's algorithms; they are completely opaque and have not been subject to outside scrutiny. Amazon claims, perhaps correctly, that secrecy allows it to stay competitive. But can the same logic be applied to policing? If no one can examine the algorithms – which is likely to be the case as predictive-policing software will be built by private companies – we won't know what biases and discriminatory practices are built into them. And algorithms increasingly dominate many other parts of our legal system; for example, they are also used to predict how likely a certain criminal, once on parole or probation, is to kill or be killed. Developed by a University of Pennsylvania professor, this algorithm has been tested in Baltimore, Philadelphia and Washington DC. Such probabilistic information can then influence sentencing recommendations and bail amounts, so it's hardly trivial.

This reminds me of the mathematical algorithms bankers used that got them thinking the maths was reality as opposed to reality itself and played some part in the crash. .
Amazon constantly sends me spam e-mails that don't seem that sophisticated to me. It doesn't seem that far fetched that someone who buys one kind of item might well buy another item placed in the same catagory. If you buy heavy metal CDs, it's logical you may buy other CDs in the catagory of "heavy metal" But though they urge me to buy things I already own or may want, they also manage to e-mail me about a lot of stuff I have no interest in. Or stuff that is the type of stuff it's reasonable to assume I may want, but in actuality I don't for whatever reason.

What these algorithms will always fail to account for is that humans are complex creatures prone to random behaviour. Patterns do exist and can have some pedictive utility, but people will always confound expectations. I've done work with offenders and their attitudes and motivations are widely varied. It strikes me there's this belief you get these days that you can reduce human behaviour to mathematical equations produced by a computer. If you've stolen a bicycle, it might be because you were drunk and it seemed funny at the time, it might have been on impulse, it might be because it wasn't locked up and the street seemed deserted and you thought you'd take a chance you'd otherwise be too scared to, you might be a serial bicycle thief, you might be desperate because you owe a loan shark money, you might hate the owner and want to piss them off - the list is endless. On top of that, what happens next will influence behaviour - you might feel guilt and shame and vow never to do such a thing again, you might think being arrested and charged isn't actually that big a deal and be more likely to do it again, it might be an occupational hazard you barely think about, it might be the trigger event where you think it's time to stop pinching stuff and go straight - how the fuck are you supposed to account for all the variables and create something that goes beyond telling you what you already know - that people who steal bicycles are statistically more likely to do other crime but on the other hand might not do other crime?

And of course if you're labelling people as a career criminal in the making, do these twats have an algorithm for the likelihood of creating self-fulfilling prophecies.

An algorithm should also be created to work out how big a twat you are if you think the real world works out as a bunch of reliable mathematical algorithms some egghead dreamed up in an office.
Last Edit: 09 Mar 2013 23:29 by dogsmilk.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 02:15 #7

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andyh wrote:
Night_Gaunt wrote:
It's a great idea. If criminals are stupid enough to share what they're going to do before they do it...the police department would be trippin not to jump on that...

:facepalm:

:dunno:
Ht Jacob Cox Brown Nt 130104 Wblog
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 02:21 #8

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The article in the OP isn't about those that have commited crimes already. It's about crimes people may commit at some future point in time.

Companies such as Facebook have begun using algorithms and historical data to predict which of their users might commit crimes.

I fail to see how you don't find the above quote very disturbing to say the least.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 03:20 #9

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psketti wrote:

I fail to see how you don't find the above quote very disturbing to say the least.
I've heard of people trying to predict human behavior before but it's just not possible.
We're too irrational. Unfortunately.
Call me by any name, any way it's all the same.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 03:29 #10

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Night_Gaunt wrote:
psketti wrote:

I fail to see how you don't find the above quote very disturbing to say the least.
I've heard of people trying to predict human behavior before but it's just not possible.

Which is why it makes the article all the more dangerous.

Whether it's possible or not, they are going to do it. Fucked up doesn't even come close.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 03:31 #11

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Night_Gaunt wrote:
psketti wrote:

I fail to see how you don't find the above quote very disturbing to say the least.
I've heard of people trying to predict human behavior before but it's just not possible.
We're too irrational. Unfortunately.

Does it matter if they can or cannot?
I'd have thought that all that matters is that they can convince people to let them police precrime given any excuse such as the above and ofc stripping further civil liberties.

Most people want at the moment pretty much what I can see in my avatar :)

I doubt people will get the choice anymore than they were given a choice over the EU or the bank bailouts.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 03:41 #12

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andyh wrote:
Night_Gaunt wrote:
psketti wrote:

I fail to see how you don't find the above quote very disturbing to say the least.
I've heard of people trying to predict human behavior before but it's just not possible.
We're too irrational. Unfortunately.


Most people want at the moment pretty much what I can see in my avatar :)

I doubt people will get the choice anymore than they were given a choice over the EU or the bank bailouts.
Yeah, I can easily see this turning into a question over the acceptable amount of authority that should be allowed or that which leans into the "you're making me uncomfortable". Let's not forget there is no established right to privacy. At least, in the U.S. constitution. I'm not well-versed in the UK's.
Call me by any name, any way it's all the same.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 03:42 #13

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psketti wrote:
Night_Gaunt wrote:
psketti wrote:

I fail to see how you don't find the above quote very disturbing to say the least.
I've heard of people trying to predict human behavior before but it's just not possible.

Which is why it makes the article all the more dangerous.

Whether it's possible or not, they are going to do it. Fucked up doesn't even come close.
Wouldn't be surprising. And the lawsuits following will be quite amusing to witness.
Call me by any name, any way it's all the same.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 03:57 #14

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For info: The UK doesn't have a written constitution NG.

It's the whole Minority Report angle on this that is most disturbing.
If some fucknut pulls off a crime then sticks the confession or braggy pics on the web, fuck 'em.
It's the very concept that software would be trusted to anticipate someone is likely or about to commit a crime and that they may be detained on that basis which is untenable.

On that assumption, anyone declaring their candidacy for political office should immediately have a cops boot on their neck.
In fact there is a better case to be made in that declaration for likely criminal intent..
Last Edit: 10 Mar 2013 03:58 by feather.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 04:04 #15

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feather wrote:
For info: The UK doesn't have a written constitution NG.
:fraid: you guys are screwed!
Call me by any name, any way it's all the same.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 04:16 #16

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Night_Gaunt wrote:
feather wrote:
For info: The UK doesn't have a written constitution NG.
:fraid: you guys are screwed!
Lol, it's only taken them a couple of hundred years to scrunch up your written one and toss it in the wastepaper bin.

But yeah, we're all screwed. :chuckle:
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 05:08 #17

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feather wrote:
Night_Gaunt wrote:
feather wrote:
For info: The UK doesn't have a written constitution NG.
:fraid: you guys are screwed!
Lol, it's only taken them a couple of hundred years to scrunch up your written one and toss it in the wastepaper bin.

But yeah, we're all screwed. :chuckle:
I think our problem is that we take it too seriously and worship the thing, forgetting the political positions of those who wrote it and assuming conditions are the same.
Call me by any name, any way it's all the same.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 05:31 #18

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Night_Gaunt wrote:
I think our problem is that we take it too seriously and worship the thing, forgetting the political positions of those who wrote it and assuming conditions are the same.
I participated on a few US based forums and never ceased to be amazed by the implied infallibility of "The Founding Fathers."
Those guys were a very disparate collective and far from infallible.
The Constitution is full of amendments, That happened because those guys got something wrong initially or had omitted to include it first time round. Infallible people don't need amendments. :)
From where I sit, the typical US citizen makes the mistake of believing that the constitution will protect them. Maybe glance through the Patriot Act(s) and reassess that assumption.

Patriot: The person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about. - Mark Twain
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 05:41 #19

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feather wrote:
Night_Gaunt wrote:
I think our problem is that we take it too seriously and worship the thing, forgetting the political positions of those who wrote it and assuming conditions are the same.
I participated on a few US based forums and never ceased to be amazed by the implied infallibility of "The Founding Fathers."
Those guys were a very disparate collective and far from infallible.
The Constitution is full of amendments, That happened because those guys got something wrong initially or had omitted to include it first time round. Infallible people don't need amendments. :)
From where I sit, the typical US citizen makes the mistake of believing that the constitution will protect them. Maybe glance through the Patriot Act(s) and reassess that assumption.

Patriot: The person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about. - Mark Twain
Tbh amendments make me nervous. Congress can keep on adding those and the average person won't fully understand the context.
The constitution will protect you based on how you play it, and even if you put up a good fight its entirely up to the biases of the judge.
Patriot has been a misleading term since the 1770s when it had a positive connotation in order to excite the citizens, now its easier to see past its sugarcoating. A modern patriot is a stubborn imbecile who is unwilling to cooperate nor tolerate.
Call me by any name, any way it's all the same.
Last Edit: 10 Mar 2013 05:45 by Night_Gaunt.
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Yet Another Reason not to Sign up for Facebook 10 Mar 2013 10:28 #20

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Anyone here watch Person Of Interest?
Person of Interest is an American television crime drama broadcasting on CBS. It is based on a screenplay developed by Jonathan Nolan.[1] The series revolves around a former CIA agent (Jim Caviezel) recruited by a mysterious billionaire (Michael Emerson) to prevent violent crimes in New York City. Season two premiered on September 27, 2012.[2]

John Reese (Jim Caviezel), a former Green Beret and CIA field officer, is living as a derelict in New York City after the death of the woman he loves, and is presumed dead. He is approached by Harold Finch (Michael Emerson), a reclusive billionaire computer genius who is living under an assumed identity. Finch explains that after September 11, 2001, he built a computer system for the government which uses information gleaned from omnipresent surveillance to predict future terrorist attacks. However, Finch discovered that the computer was predicting ordinary crimes as well. While the government was not interested in these results, Finch is determined to find a way to stop the predicted crimes. He hires Reese to conduct surveillance and intervene as needed, using his repertoire of skills gained in the military and CIA. Through a back door built into the system, Finch receives a Social Security number for someone who will be involved in an imminent crime, at which point he contacts Reese. Without knowing what the crime will be, when it will occur, or even if the person they were alerted to is a victim or perpetrator, Reese and Finch must try to stop the crime from occurring.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_Interest_(TV_series)


I watch it, and have to admit I am hooked. :emb: But to bring a tv series into reality....it's those little quips like the CIA using the drug trade to fund their war on terror etc.
This development on Facebook doesn't surprise me at all, and my guess is they have already been doing it for years, it's only now they are telling you about it because they have moved on to something even more sinister/advanced and this is yestardays news.
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