probably not...remember Ben Needham?

angelchemuel wrote:
I think a lot of people do now, as the McCann case helped to resurrect interest in that disappearance. The differences and similarities in the cases are interesting. The Needham family have not attracted the hate the McCanns have. Yet Ben was left alone outside to play at the age of 1 3/4 by babysitting grandparents. The police straight away went to suspecting the family, but like Madeleine, there was insufficient evidence and abduction cannot be ruled out, alone with accidental death and the body being hidden away.

It would appear to be a double edged sword. The McCanns have to put up with a lot of hate, but get loads of publicity. The Needham's are not hated, but struggle to get publicity. Maybe the hate actually helps keep the McCanns in the soptlight?

The McCanns certainly do love the spotlight, for sure. I have feeling we may never know what really happened.

It's not that shocking,Barnfish. Since there's a lot of suspicion they're hiding something nasty, people aren't likely feel much fondness for them .

Barnfish wrote:
Why would it not be in Dr K's bed from when she was lying in it, surely this would have been the place in the apartment that she spent more time than anywhere else, it would be everywhere she went, not just in those isolated areas, to use your own analogy if she smoked, the smell of smoke would be everywhere not just in certain locations, I say the reason could be for the said locations is that it was transferred from the dead toddler, hence Dr K would not have used her bed again since the flat was then a crime scene, hence no cadaver scent in the place where she likely spent most time in the apartment 'bed'.

edit ps the other locations you posted are not in the apartment, rather they are external/movable objects to the apartment.

If the scent was transferred to a car key two weeks after the death, then surely if the scent was from a dead body during Dr K's work, then it would have transferred to every cup, saucer, door handle. light switch etc... But no, so it appears the cadaver was only on the selected items that could have contacted the toddler, and then on other items that she had not contacted after she 'went missing'.

Can you not see how this looks, if Dr K was spreading cadaver from her job, it would be on everything that she touched in the apartment.
But it's not, and it is on items 'hired' after the disappearance, this means it was only on Dr K after the disappearance and the scent in the apartment was in so few places because they had not touched much after she 'went missing', if the scent of cadaver was from Dr K's job, it would be everywhere from the time they spent in the apartment, a small amount of scent means it's not been transferred about for very long or to many locations, because it's now a crime scene and they are out.

BLOOD found in the McCanns’ hire car and holiday flat DID belong to missing Madeleine, it was claimed yesterday.

It reflects detectives’ belief that she is dead and her parents Kate and Gerry disposed of her body.

New results sent to Portugal in the last few days show the blood samples could only belong to Madeleine, it was claimed.

The McCanns have always insisted there were innocent explanations for the traces found behind the sofa at the Ocean Club apartment in Praia da Luz and in the boot of the Renault Scenic they hired there 25 days after Madeleine vanished on May 3. They claim the DNA could be linked to her siblings, two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.

But the respected Portuguese newspaper Correio da Manha reported yesterday: “The definitive result of the tests leave no doubts for the Policia Judiciaria. The blood found in the McCanns’ car is that of Madeleine as well as those samples detected in the flat.”

Detectives in Portugal asked British scientists to carry out new tests after initial ones by the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham proved inconclusive.

They are believed to be using a new technique called low copy number analysis, which allows them to find a genetic fingerprint from a tiny sample.

The samples from the flat and the hire car were said to be damaged and of low quality, but police sources now claim the latest results are definitive.

Portuguese detectives plan to travel to Britain in the coming weeks to reinterview the McCanns and the friends they dined with at a tapas restaurant on the night Madeleine vanished, aged three.

Yesterday Dr Russell O’Brien and his partner Jane Tanner were named as the two friends reported last year to have told police they wanted to change their account of that evening.

Ms Tanner, 37, from Exeter, says she saw a mystery man carrying a child away from the flat at 9.15pm on the night Madeleine vanished.

Police were said to believe Dr O’Brien, 36, wanted to change his statement to claim he also saw the man, newspaper 24 Horas reported.

But staff at the restaurant say Ms Tanner was at the table throughout the meal and only left after Kate came running in shouting “They’ve taken her!”, the tabloid reported.

Dr O’Brien and Ms Tanner have denied contacting police to change their stories and sources close to the McCanns support that position.

The McCanns were made formal suspects after sniffer dogs allegedly detected the “scent of death” in the flat and car, and on clothes belonging to Kate.

Further tests found microscopic blood traces in the flat and on lining in the boot of the car.

' Portuguese police believe Madeleine died in an accident and that Kate and Gerry conspired with their friends to dispose of the body.

Police sources claim the couple could be charged with manslaughter as well as hiding a body and wasting police time. Kate and Gerry McCann, both 39 and from Rothley, Leics, deny involvement in their daughter’s disappearance.

They have had independent DNA tests on the car which they say revealed no trace of Madeleine.

Last night their spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “These reports are very distressing for Kate and Gerry, they are depressed that again wild rumour and speculation is being presented as fact. We wish Portuguese police would just get on with their investigation“As for the supposed DNA testing, we cannot comment on yet more unsubstantiated rampant speculation in the Portuguese press.

“It is ridiculous to suggest that Madeleine’s blood was in the hire car because she was never in it. It was hired more than 20 days after she went missing, which means it was impossible for her to have ever been in it.''

www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/10jan8/EXPRESS_08_01_08.htm

Now barnfish I'd like you to take extra special interest in this article, if her blood was discovered in a hire car, as a parent would you not want that evidence chased up by the police, as someone using the hire car could have been the 'abductor' the very fact that the McCann camp call this 'ridiculous' is ignoring that possibility, thus they are more interested in diverting attention away from the hire car rather than leaving no stone unturned?

Now that is very odd. Why does Gerry always state that something is ridiculous? I would think he would take a special interest and concern about these revelations, but instead he attempts to sweep evidence under the carpet.

Great posts, Blue! Keep up the good work.

Gilly wrote:
Do you feel the same way about the Needhams?

Blue_Tackler wrote:
How definitive do you regard that evidence? Have you researched how smell gets transferred or not? Have you checked to see if it was possible for Madeleine's dead body to have been in the apartment for long enough to leave a scent?

I can see how you have looked at the evidence, I am pointing out that it is not the only interpretation and more answers are needed.

Blue_Tackler wrote:
The article you linked to is cites its source as "Original Source: EXPRESS: 07 JANUARY 2008". So my extra special interest in the article is what has happened since then?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13386785

"19 March (2008): Mr and Mrs McCann accept £550,000 libel damages and front-page apologies from Express Newspapers over allegations they were responsible for Madeleine's death."

Can you evidence the article's claim about it being Madeleine's blood actually came to anything?

Mountain wrote:
I think both you and Blue_Tackler are failing to spot what is evidence and what is bad reporting and speculation from the press and amateur blogs by internet sleuths.

Barnfish wrote:
You miss the point, surely as parents they'd want/support the police with any evidence, not dismiss it as 'ridiculous'.
Whether it came to anything or not, why would they not want it investigated as the prior car hirer could have been the 'abductor'?

Gerry McCann: "...we will leave no stone unturned in the search for our daughter, Madeleine." - 11 May 2007

Clarence Mitchell: "Kate and Gerry have always said that they will do whatever is necessary to find Madeleine and that they will leave no stone unturned in their search for their daughter.

"They will take whatever legal steps are necessary if there is information out there that can assist their private investigation into finding Madeleine. Beyond that I cannot make any comment." - 20 June 2008

Kate McCann [on Stephen Birch]: "...I mean, who is this person at the end of the day, you know, so..." - 10 July 2012

www.mccannfiles.com/id413.html

Madeleine McCann: Remains possibly found June 2012

South-African, Stephen Birch conducted a private independent investigation, and believes that on the 23 June 2012 he located the remains of Madeleine McCann, 174 meters from where she went missing, in Praia da Luz Portugal (Algarve).

Blue_Tackler wrote:
Like you I would have responded in a different way to the McCanns. My reaction would have been, OK fill your boots and investigate. I think they and Clarence Mitchell did the wrong thing.

There are various possibles as why they did what they did. One is that the McCanns are trying to dismiss this evidence against them. The answer to that comes with my question to you "Can you evidence the article's claim about it being Madeleine's blood actually came to anything? Can you answer that question?

Another possible is they know they had nothing to do with her abduction and want red herrings ignored. As the article you linked to said "These reports are very distressing for Kate and Gerry, they are depressed that again wild rumour and speculation is being presented as fact" Bare in mind the article came from the Express who not that long after publishing paid the McCanns a large amount of money for liabeling them. They were also very pissed off with the Portuguese Police and were inclined (wrongly) to fall out with them.

Blue_Tackler wrote:
So what came of that enquiry? What came of the alleged find of blood in January 2008 you linked to? How have those enquiries been progressed? Was the blood definitively linked to Madeleine? Was the driveway dug up?

Blue_Tackler wrote:
Can you post the whole e-mail? I want to see if the conclusion was a definite yes for Madeleine's blood being found in the car, as per the Express article you previously linked to. What you have posted is a no (swab 3B), a maybe (swab 3A) and a yes with conditions attached.

The e-mail is dated 4th Sep 2007, which puts it before the Express claim you linked to and the Express having to pay out damages. Again, what was the final result of this over 6 year old part of the enquiry?

Processos Vol IX, pages 2280 to 2281

THE FORENSIC SCIENCE SERVICE®
WETHERBY LABORATORY, SANDBECK WAY, AUDBY LANE, WETHERBY, WEST YORKSHIRE, LS22 7DN

FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: Det Supt Prior
Client: Leicestershire Police, New Parks
Police reference: 07/06085 Qperation TASK
Laboratory reference:
Order reference: 300 555190
Scientist:400 913 609
Scientist: LESLEY DENTON
Number of pages: 2

Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Kate HEALY 51162896) and Gerald McCANN (51162897).

A DNA profile has also been obtained from a pillowcase (SJM/1).

DNA profiling reveals a series of bands, half of which a child inherits from their natural mother (maternal) and half of which ït ïnherits from their natural father
(paternal)

In this case, all of the bands present in the profïle of abtained from the pillowcase are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from a natural child of theirs.

The results of the DNA profife obtaïned from the pïllowcase is approximately 29 million times more likely if the profïle originates form a natural child of theirs rather than someone unrelated to them.

In my opinion, the results detailed above provide extremely strong support for the view that the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from a natural child of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN.

Please note: I understand that the McCANN's have a second female child. It therefore remains a formal possibility that the DNA on the pillowcase could have originated from her as the genetics would be in keeping with those described above.

If I can be of further assitance or you require a CJA statement please do not hesitate to contact me at the laboratory on 01XXX XXXXXX.

Yours sincerely

Lesley Anne Denton
FORENSIC SCIENTIST
Date: 28 June 2007

....................................................................................................................................................................................................


Processos Vol IX, pages 2287 to 2288

THE FORENSIC SCIENCE SERVICE®
WETHERBY LABORATORY, SANDBECK WAY, AUDBY LANE, WETHERBY, WEST YORKSHIRE, LS22 7DN

FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: Det Supt Prior
Client: Leicestershire Police, New Parks
Police reference: 07/06085 Operation TASK
Laboratory reference: 300 655 190
Order reference: 400 922 755
Scientist: Lesley Denton
Number of pages: 2

Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Amelie Eve McCANN (SBM/2) and Sean Michael McCANN (SBM/3).

In this case, all of the bands present in the profiles of both Amelie McCANN and Sean McCANN are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if Amelie McCANN and Sean Michael McCANN were their natural children.

Neither the DNA profile of Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN matches that from the pillowcase (SJM/1) and therefore in my opinion, neither Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN can be the source of this profile.

If I can be of further assistance or you require a CJA statement please do not hesitate to contact me at the laboratory on 01937 548287.

Yours sincerely,

Lesley Ann Denton
FORENSIC SCIENTIST
Date: 18 July 2007


..............................................................................................................................................................................................................

Firstly, here are the last three results you are expecting

An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive, it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

There is no evidence to support the view that Madeline McCann contributed DNA to the swab 3B.

A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why?...

Well, lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab?"

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.



What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Bimiingham, myself included. lt's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: Is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation

What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling?

When was the DNA deposited?
How was the DNA deposited?
What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from?
Was a crime committed?

These, along with all other results, will be formalised in a final report

Please don't hesitate to contact me if you require any further assistance

kind regards
John

John Lowe
Forensic Scientist
Major Incidents Team
Priory House

..........................................................................................................................................................................................................


More here www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

Blue_Tackler wrote:
Now do you see why the Express was sued and the McCanns won over claims of blood in the car and the suggestion they killed her? We have DNA on a pillow and the other DNA found cannot be exclusively linked to Madeleine, let alone explained how it got there. There is no mention of blood in the car, as per the original link you used.

So how did the driveway dig go?