......
Look at it without being judgemental of the folk that are pointing it out.
A toddler goes missing.
A person say's he's scanned a recently dug/laid driveway in the area and he think's she's there.
The parents dismiss this and are not interested in looking.
...........
The actual events are
A toddler goes missing.
A person (a businessman, who has been trying to broker a deal to sell the rights to the hoped for dig)
say's he's scanned (by breaking into the property such that he cannot return to Portugal without being arrested)
a recently dug/laid driveway (where do you get that from? It is gravel with weeds growing through it including the part where he says there may be a body. Were the weeds put back when the drive was supposedly dug up? Is there any evidence to say it was recently dug up by disturbance on the surface)
and he thinks she is there (based on three voids below the surface with what experience of ground radar and interpreting the results?).
Then to add to the above -
The police and a cadaver dog have searched the same place and found nothing at all.
There has been no independent assessment of the scan results by experts that I can find.
Murat and the McCanns have been investigated to a very high degree such that the police do not believe they would have had the opportunity to bury her there.
Your version is the judgemental one, not mine which looks at everything, not just some parts.
Barnfish say's...
The police and a cadaver dog have searched the same place and found nothing at all
We've been through that. THE McCANNS DON'T THINK THE DOGS OR THE HANDLER ARE RELIABLE, SEE THEIR VEIWS ABOUT...
1) THE RENAULT
2) THE APARTMENT
Barnfish say's...
There has been no independent assessment of the scan results by experts that I can find.
''Despite the findings and photos also appearing 17 times in Portugal's largest newspaper Correio da Manha , and Stephen petitioning Portugal's Prime Minister, and Attorney General, the Portuguese government has to date refused to dig up the Murat driveway. 5 International experts, in the use of ground penetrating radar equipment, have all examined scans taken of the Murat driveway by Stephen using a Mala ground penetrating radar machine, and have recommended excavating the driveway immediately.Here are the expert opinions: Ralph Baird Texas EquuSearch (USA) "dig it up or probe it and see what is there; it’s a small task- the digging." Gretchen E. Freund- UIT System (USA) "There are anomalous features in the GPR data that may be due to remains, but whether or not the data indicates the presence of remains cannot be determined solely from the GPR data. You must dig to find out.” Michael Wolmarans, Imbila Location Services CC (South Africa) “there is a distinct sign of a void. This suggests that the ground has been disturbed by digging. Below the void there is an object, though it is not possible to say what it is without excavating. If this were my own investigation, I would have little doubt that an excavation of the area is required.”
You Signing up Barnfish ? secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/DIGGING_FOR...driveway/?rc=fb&pv=2
He say's it was a newly constructed driveway at the time, how long do you think it takes weeds to grow in a sunny country like Portugal?
PS this 'businessman' does not get any money if someone digs the driveway and finds her, does he?
This is where my bottom line would be if it existed.
Leaving no stone unturned does not mean going to the nth degree to satisfy the whim of every crackpot, amateur, internet sleuth. I would be inclined to ignore clairvoyants and Miss Marples sleuths and concentrate on proper investigation.
I'm finding this comment really strange. If that was my child, I'd have dug the place up with my bare hands if necessary.
Fine, pay the money to Murat and Birch and do it and face being ripped off again by bogus investigators. Ignore the other evidence that there is no body there.
Would you dig where a clairvoyant had said she was buried, but there was not just no other evidence to say she was buried there, there was evidence to say she was not there at all? If after being the victim of various bogus investigations would you keep paying out for more?
You and others who are so sure she is there should pay up and do it rather than not do it and snipe at others who will not pay up and do it.
You'll be doing us both a favour if you don't try to put words in my mouth, Barnfish.
I didn't say that I was sure she was there, and nor did I snipe, so you can knock that off.
Why the hell wouldn't they choose to follow up that lead (which has got sweet FA to do with clairvoyance) - they seem to have plenty of charitable funds supplied to them for continual investigation (some of which I helped raise in the past btw) so let's not pretend the cost is an issue.
Based on all of the evidence, would you pay up to dig there?
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Madeleine McCann Saga: will it ever end?
15 Feb 2014 12:35 #183
The Police could authorise the dig with a warrant, the McCann's legal team could lean on the police for this.
Why would it cost so much to dig a gravel drive?
It's a coupe of people with shovels.
Are you suggesting that Murat and Birch are in cahoots to get money out of the McCanns?
If the police are persuaded to dig, then Murat can't charge them (as long as they cover it back over as it was)
I want to know why the McCann's are not asking the police to do this, it's Birch who's asking the police, but he can't charge them can he?
He does not have any financial copyright to a dig, if the police decide to dig they would not be paying him.
This is where my bottom line would be if it existed.
......
Look at it without being judgemental of the folk that are pointing it out.
A toddler goes missing.
A person say's he's scanned a recently dug/laid driveway in the area and he think's she's there.
The parents dismiss this and are not interested in looking.
...........
The actual events are
A toddler goes missing.
A person (a businessman, who has been trying to broker a deal to sell the rights to the hoped for dig)
say's he's scanned (by breaking into the property such that he cannot return to Portugal without being arrested)
a recently dug/laid driveway (where do you get that from? It is gravel with weeds growing through it including the part where he says there may be a body. Were the weeds put back when the drive was supposedly dug up? Is there any evidence to say it was recently dug up by disturbance on the surface)
and he thinks she is there (based on three voids below the surface with what experience of ground radar and interpreting the results?).
Then to add to the above -
The police and a cadaver dog have searched the same place and found nothing at all.
There has been no independent assessment of the scan results by experts that I can find.
Murat and the McCanns have been investigated to a very high degree such that the police do not believe they would have had the opportunity to bury her there.
Your version is the judgemental one, not mine which looks at everything, not just some parts.
Barnfish say's...
The police and a cadaver dog have searched the same place and found nothing at all
We've been through that. THE McCANNS DON'T THINK THE DOGS OR THE HANDLER ARE RELIABLE, SEE THEIR VEIWS ABOUT...
1) THE RENAULT
2) THE APARTMENT
Barnfish say's...
There has been no independent assessment of the scan results by experts that I can find.
''Despite the findings and photos also appearing 17 times in Portugal's largest newspaper Correio da Manha , and Stephen petitioning Portugal's Prime Minister, and Attorney General, the Portuguese government has to date refused to dig up the Murat driveway. 5 International experts, in the use of ground penetrating radar equipment, have all examined scans taken of the Murat driveway by Stephen using a Mala ground penetrating radar machine, and have recommended excavating the driveway immediately.Here are the expert opinions: Ralph Baird Texas EquuSearch (USA) "dig it up or probe it and see what is there; it’s a small task- the digging." Gretchen E. Freund- UIT System (USA) "There are anomalous features in the GPR data that may be due to remains, but whether or not the data indicates the presence of remains cannot be determined solely from the GPR data. You must dig to find out.” Michael Wolmarans, Imbila Location Services CC (South Africa) “there is a distinct sign of a void. This suggests that the ground has been disturbed by digging. Below the void there is an object, though it is not possible to say what it is without excavating. If this were my own investigation, I would have little doubt that an excavation of the area is required.”
You Signing up Barnfish ? secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/DIGGING_FOR...driveway/?rc=fb&pv=2
He say's it was a newly constructed driveway at the time, how long do you think it takes weeds to grow in a sunny country like Portugal?
PS this 'businessman' does not get any money if someone digs the driveway and finds her, does he?
Regarding the dogs, the source of the smell and conclusions from such are a different matter. The McCanns are unhappy because Kate is an obvious source of cadaver smell, the science from the results is inconclusive and one of the results was blood from a forensic scientist at the locus. Plus they have a case of miscarriage of justice because of a dog. That is what the McCanns are unhappy about. What they think of reliability of the dogs is irrelevant to MY argument that the dogs detected nothing at Murat's drive. I cannot explain why the McCanns do exactly what they do.
So experts in ground radar have no idea what is there and suggest digging to find out. So ground radar does not detect a body there, just a something maybe. That adds to the evidence of no body. Plus with the weeds there is no sign of recently dug ground.
We will just go round in circles as to whether or not it is worth digging the driveway. Those who want to do it should organise themselves and do it. It is hypocritical of them to think it should be done and then have a go at those who think it is a waste of time.
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Re:Madeleine McCann Saga: will it ever end?
15 Feb 2014 12:45 #186
The Police could authorise the dig with a warrant, the McCann's legal team could lean on the police for this.
Why would it cost so much to dig a gravel drive?
It's a coupe of people with shovels.
Are you suggesting that Murat and Birch are in cahoots to get money out of the McCanns?
If the police are persuaded to dig, then Murat can't charge them (as long as they cover it back over as it was)
I want to know why the McCann's are not asking the police to do this, it's Birch who's asking the police, but he can't charge them can he?
He does not have any financial copyright to a dig, if the police decide to dig they would not be paying him.
The cost is down to the legal wrangling over rights and the odd compensation deal struck with Murat. Of course it could be done for no money at all with a warrant. But would you get a warrant with only the evidence of Stephen Birch?
I am not suggesting anything about the McCanns and clearly cannot answer your question as to why for sure they have not pushed for the dig to happen.
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Re:Re: Madeleine McCann Saga: will it ever end?
15 Feb 2014 12:49 #188
One way to find out isn't there? Dig up the drive!
Yes, but no one is prepared to actually do it. Not even Birch when he was there in the dark. He could have taken a spade or probe and had a little dig or poke. Maybe everyone is in the conspiracy to keep the body hidden there, even you!!
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Re:Re: Madeleine McCann Saga: will it ever end?
15 Feb 2014 12:52 #190
I am not suggesting anything about the McCanns and clearly cannot answer your question as to why for sure they have not pushed for the dig to happen.
But that's the most important question of all!
Way more important than whether the drive is actually dug up or not... and the minutiae surrounding that.
I hope you never end up sitting on a jury. Your reliance on suspicion rather than evidence is likely to result in miscarriages of justice. The evidence Madeleine is not buried there is beyond reasonable doubt.
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Re:Re: Re:Re: Madeleine McCann Saga: will it ever end?
15 Feb 2014 12:56 #191
I hope you never end up sitting on a jury. Your reliance on suspicion rather than evidence is likely to result in miscarriages of justice. The evidence Madeleine is not buried there is beyond reasonable doubt.
There is no evidence, whatsoever, of an abduction. There is some (albeit disputed) evidence that the child died in the apartment.
Who would you say is looking away from evidence here?
......
Look at it without being judgemental of the folk that are pointing it out.
A toddler goes missing.
A person say's he's scanned a recently dug/laid driveway in the area and he think's she's there.
The parents dismiss this and are not interested in looking.
...........
The actual events are
A toddler goes missing.
A person (a businessman, who has been trying to broker a deal to sell the rights to the hoped for dig)
say's he's scanned (by breaking into the property such that he cannot return to Portugal without being arrested)
a recently dug/laid driveway (where do you get that from? It is gravel with weeds growing through it including the part where he says there may be a body. Were the weeds put back when the drive was supposedly dug up? Is there any evidence to say it was recently dug up by disturbance on the surface)
and he thinks she is there (based on three voids below the surface with what experience of ground radar and interpreting the results?).
Then to add to the above -
The police and a cadaver dog have searched the same place and found nothing at all.
There has been no independent assessment of the scan results by experts that I can find.
Murat and the McCanns have been investigated to a very high degree such that the police do not believe they would have had the opportunity to bury her there.
Your version is the judgemental one, not mine which looks at everything, not just some parts.
Barnfish say's...
The police and a cadaver dog have searched the same place and found nothing at all
We've been through that. THE McCANNS DON'T THINK THE DOGS OR THE HANDLER ARE RELIABLE, SEE THEIR VEIWS ABOUT...
1) THE RENAULT
2) THE APARTMENT
Barnfish say's...
There has been no independent assessment of the scan results by experts that I can find.
''Despite the findings and photos also appearing 17 times in Portugal's largest newspaper Correio da Manha , and Stephen petitioning Portugal's Prime Minister, and Attorney General, the Portuguese government has to date refused to dig up the Murat driveway. 5 International experts, in the use of ground penetrating radar equipment, have all examined scans taken of the Murat driveway by Stephen using a Mala ground penetrating radar machine, and have recommended excavating the driveway immediately.Here are the expert opinions: Ralph Baird Texas EquuSearch (USA) "dig it up or probe it and see what is there; it’s a small task- the digging." Gretchen E. Freund- UIT System (USA) "There are anomalous features in the GPR data that may be due to remains, but whether or not the data indicates the presence of remains cannot be determined solely from the GPR data. You must dig to find out.” Michael Wolmarans, Imbila Location Services CC (South Africa) “there is a distinct sign of a void. This suggests that the ground has been disturbed by digging. Below the void there is an object, though it is not possible to say what it is without excavating. If this were my own investigation, I would have little doubt that an excavation of the area is required.”
You Signing up Barnfish ? secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/DIGGING_FOR...driveway/?rc=fb&pv=2
He say's it was a newly constructed driveway at the time, how long do you think it takes weeds to grow in a sunny country like Portugal?
PS this 'businessman' does not get any money if someone digs the driveway and finds her, does he?
Regarding the dogs, the source of the smell and conclusions from such are a different matter. The McCanns are unhappy because Kate is an obvious source of cadaver smell, the science from the results is inconclusive and one of the results was blood from a forensic scientist at the locus. Plus they have a case of miscarriage of justice because of a dog. That is what the McCanns are unhappy about. What they think of reliability of the dogs is irrelevant to MY argument that the dogs detected nothing at Murat's drive. I cannot explain why the McCanns do exactly what they do.
So experts in ground radar have no idea what is there and suggest digging to find out. So ground radar does not detect a body there, just a something maybe. That adds to the evidence of no body. Plus with the weeds there is no sign of recently dug ground.
We will just go round in circles as to whether or not it is worth digging the driveway. Those who want to do it should organise themselves and do it. It is hypocritical of them to think it should be done and then have a go at those who think it is a waste of time.
But the dogs and police did look there, thus they must have thought something was up, worth looking for there, so if the 'victim' is there it could be that she's wrapped in something so that the dogs don't smell anything. I don't know how deep under ground they can smell?
The point is if the police thought it was worth searching there, what's the hassle to either insert a probe or dig?
btw I'm not asking why you would dig or not dig there based on the dogs, I'm proposing that if the reason that the McCanns don't want it dug is because of the dogs, then they are being selective, they even accused the handler of cheating with the Renault search, by keeping calling the dog back to that car.
IDK what they think that the hander was trying to cheat for?
but anyhow the plausible reasons that the McCanns have for not pressing for a dig, are weak, as far as we know.
So how is not pressing for a dig the same as 'leaving no stone unturned?
And they wonder why people are suspicious of them.
It's not unwarranted suspicion is it.
I mean it's still at..
Missing Toddler
Ground Scan finds 'something' in a 'recently' constructed driveway at a property that the police already thought worth searching, yes the McCanns are not interested?
This is where my bottom line would be if it existed.
I hope you never end up sitting on a jury. Your reliance on suspicion rather than evidence is likely to result in miscarriages of justice. The evidence Madeleine is not buried there is beyond reasonable doubt.
There is no evidence, whatsoever, of an abduction. There is some (albeit disputed) evidence that the child died in the apartment.
Who would you say is looking away from evidence here?
If you have disputed and weak evidence she died there, you cannot rule out an abduction.
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Re:Madeleine McCann Saga: will it ever end?
15 Feb 2014 13:45 #195
As one commenter on the Spivey site said: if she was the mother she'd be digging up that drive with her bare hands, if need be.
The McCanns are coolly uninterested, it seems.
Yet those who find the driveway of interest are not doing anything about it. That is very suspicious. Why would they do that? Why did Birch not take a spade of better still a rod with him to probe below the ground? That is odd do you not think? He could have easily and quickly checked and if he managed to sneak a ground radar in why not a spade or rod?
This whole Madeleine is buried in the drive is very suspect and the motives behind those who are calling a for a dig but do not do anything about it is curious.
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Re:Madeleine McCann Saga: will it ever end?
15 Feb 2014 14:01 #196
It is entirely possible that the drive is a red herring. But, I reiterate, it is the McCanns' total rejection which is merely serving to increase the suspicion that they do not want their story about an abduction ruined.
As for the evidence of an abduction, there is about the same amount as for the child being beamed up by an alien spacecraft. So let's not rule that out either, eh?
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Re:Madeleine McCann Saga: will it ever end?
15 Feb 2014 14:01 #197
As one commenter on the Spivey site said: if she was the mother she'd be digging up that drive with her bare hands, if need be.
The McCanns are coolly uninterested, it seems.
Yet those who find the driveway of interest are not doing anything about it. That is very suspicious. Why would they do that? Why did Birch not take a spade of better still a rod with him to probe below the ground? That is odd do you not think? He could have easily and quickly checked and if he managed to sneak a ground radar in why not a spade or rod?
This whole Madeleine is buried in the drive is very suspect and the motives behind those who are calling a for a dig but do not do anything about it is curious.
Firstly he needs not to contaminate the evidence.
Secondly you can't just start digging up peoples driveways, you'll get arrested, I can assume he thought that if she showed his evidence to the police/owner then they would want it dug.
Thirdly people are signing this secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/DIGGING_FOR...driveway/?rc=fb&pv=2
This is where my bottom line would be if it existed.
It is entirely possible that the drive is a red herring. But, I reiterate, it is the McCanns' total rejection which is merely serving to increase the suspicion that they do not want their story about an abduction ruined.
As for the evidence of an abduction, there is about the same amount as for the child being beamed up by an alien spacecraft. So let's not rule that out either, eh?
I say the suspicion lies with those who want the driveway dug up but will not do it.
Alien abduction is daft, lets stick to real possibles.
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Re:Madeleine McCann Saga: will it ever end?
15 Feb 2014 14:23 #200
As one commenter on the Spivey site said: if she was the mother she'd be digging up that drive with her bare hands, if need be.
The McCanns are coolly uninterested, it seems.
Yet those who find the driveway of interest are not doing anything about it. That is very suspicious. Why would they do that? Why did Birch not take a spade of better still a rod with him to probe below the ground? That is odd do you not think? He could have easily and quickly checked and if he managed to sneak a ground radar in why not a spade or rod?
This whole Madeleine is buried in the drive is very suspect and the motives behind those who are calling a for a dig but do not do anything about it is curious.
Firstly he needs not to contaminate the evidence.
Secondly you can't just start digging up peoples driveways, you'll get arrested, I can assume he thought that if she showed his evidence to the police/owner then they would want it dug.
Thirdly people are signing this secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/DIGGING_FOR...driveway/?rc=fb&pv=2
All he needed to do was dig enough to find the body and stop, or use probes to show there was a body there.
He broke in and did a ground radar survey, why not do the small extra needed?
Signing is trying to get someone else to do it.
It is very suspicious that so many want to dig, yet no one will.
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