Guevarista wrote:
The monetary system and money itself is the cause of all issues that have been mentioned throughout the 'alternative truth' media, be it forums like this or whatever. It has been mans struggle for a hell of a long time.
There's been a lot of effort put in to things like capitalism, socialism, marxism, blah blah etc.
Everything involves an authoritarian dogmatic pile of bullshit with tokens being passed around.

No-one has ever dared question the very way society works at its most fundamental level, indeed, many consider it to be 'natural'.

Even anarchisic thought has been aligned along accepted dogmatic forms that we know so well.
Its only recently with the likes of the venus project and a few others that something completely outside the box has been put forward and lets face it, someone very smart once suggested that you can never solve a problem by using the same thinking that created it in the first place.
The very creation of the human invention of money has created almost all the problems we face today...so why stick with it?

To say it is 'tried and tested' for example is cognitive dissonance, it is stating that something we all know to be flawed is not flawed.
Another example is this crazy notion that to solve the debt problem you create more debt.

Long winded cognitive dissonance is to create a much longer pile of prose full of complicated words and notions that are already known to be complete epic fails and then suggest somehow that by making it more complicated it will then somehow work out just fine.

I've seen the 'light' so to speak and imho (and a growing number of others) our future lies in abandoning all these old norms and starting anew.

Guevarista wrote:
I'll try, first I need to get my head around the point I raised before I can convince myself to read any further.

@gue.
i love your posts, they're always informative and considered.
have to say that i can see what andy is getting at.
i think where we are is way beyond class struggle. this is a struggle for humanity itself.

dubmeup wrote:
Yes indeed! Very much so.
We will either shortly evolve or perish in war and ultimately famine/disease.
The old ideals about societal reform simply don't cut it anymore.

So you say an inanimate object and exchange medium is the cause of all this strife: money, discounting the human agency acting on the inanimate object, ie class distinctions, financial interests, greed and entrenched wealth?

You know yourself money is useful, helps most of us eat rice from Asia doesn't it:

That's not crazy, very few businesses start up without making a loss, but end up making money, if I took a loan out of the bank to buy marketable commodities I might initially show a loss of the loan amount +interests, but if I've invested the money wisely and sell the commodities at %100 markup I will eventually make a profit.

In terms of government investing money in infrastructure development programs that create jobs, pays incomes, reducing unemployment and increasing market activity, though they may have to take out loans initially likewise if they invest wisely, they will see beneficial returns.

That's just an objective fact imo, the more the interests governing investment are people/socially motivated, the more they reflect the interests of the masses of people the better, the more they work in the interests of profiteering the worse for "us". topical

I think it's more absurd to just hope money disappears.
I really don't think Utopianism or futurism are particularly new or "out of the box" so to speak, I think fresco's waiting for the institutions of power to decide they want to do something for the good of the people and invest some money in him isn't he?

dubmeup wrote:
Well this is actually something that I alluded to in my post, it signals the broadening of the class struggle the future/humanity/the planet are at stake, this imo is the development of the consciousness of the Proletariat, from feudal property, to slave, to industrial workhorse, to financial asset, (with technological advance) to redundant commodity, to a position of catalyst in the process of social organization/development/revolution, the transcendence of subordination, it's not because the current dominant classes are having a change of hundreds of years of tradition that things are getting better, it's because the oppressed class is growing, and our interests and concerns do include the whole of Humanity and our collective well being, we are angry at how the interests of capitalism have infringed upon our well being countless times, Bhopal India, Atomic Testing in Australia, Exxon Mobil disaster etc etc...

it would seem to me anyway.

oioioi wrote:
Ok well go one sentence further, here:

Guevarista wrote:
I did. What is confusing is the line you highlighted, it contradicts the line I highlighted. It also assumes everyone knows who Marxists consider to be reformists/reforms.

And I am still none the wiser as to why this statement
“Unlike the anar­chists, the Marx­ists recog­nise strug­gle for reforms, i.e., for mea­sures that improve the con­di­tions of the work­ing peo­ple with­out destroy­ing the power of the rul­ing class.”
appears to state that the solitary difference between anarchists and Marxists is where they stand on "...destroy­ing the power of the rul­ing class.”

Oi, according to the post above a reformist is someone who "directly or indirectly restrict the aims and activities of the Working class to [merely] winning reforms", that would seem pretty clear description of who the author considers a reformist.

"Unlike the anar­chists, the Marx­ists recog­nise strug­gle for reforms" in that statement Lenin is essentially describing anarchists as Politically disconnected from the struggle of the working class, not engaged in achieving popular reforms, i don't think it's totally true today, or even then, but obviously is of the Anarchists Lenin encountered.

I'd say people claiming to be anarchists, the occupy movement etc are out there agitating for reform so I definitely don't agree that Anarchists disregard the struggle for reform.

So, what we arguing about?

Marxism is still a dirty word I forgive you dude

It kinda annoys me a little bit though that nearly 100yrs on Lenin get's all the attention for a sentence about Anarchism and I get called Cognitive dissonance and laughed off maybe I am long winded

In the context of the thread if there is a force for good dubs, it's as yet developing out of the masses of oppressed human beings, the working classes and as such is loosely defined, the examples you cite occurring in society as evidence of good guys here to save us, are provoked mostly by the formerly mentioned force, the underclass, our communal sense of justice for everyone and disregard for tradition power etc, other things like Capitalism with a human face, "green" multi-nationals etc, the XFoundation, Lord Blackheath nonsense are attempts, overt and subversive of bourgeois reformism imho, they only do it to sustain profit.

But as you all know we're getting wise to their game, and literally everybody now has this potential, to get wise to their game, to organise and do the non-comply dance.

Guevarista wrote:
Which is more absurd...to continue doing something absurd or to stop doing it?

Does money bring you food? As you said yourself, it is an inanimate object. An item..less in fact, tis but a facet of the mind. A delusion.

The stark reality that a hell of a lot of people will not admit is that they need to be motivated to co-operate.
It is this situation that they consider 'natural' and yet, did we not co-operate long before we had money?
In fact, had we not originally co-operated would there not simply be apes roaming jungles on this Earth to this very day?

How many times have we heard the words 'it costs too much' from those in power?
It costs too much to feed everyone so we should have a cull...it costs too much to give you all healthcare....it costs too much to educate you all and yet, this is the clincher...those at the top know that they can produce as much money as they like.
Shortly with digital banking we won't even know how much is in circulation.

When Icke talks about the world being an illusion this is my interpretation of it, the illusion is the monetary system, economics, politics, nation states, all of it is needless baggage that is holding back the human race from achieving so much more.
Not necessarily utopia but a step in the right direction, currently we are just walking in circles and getting nothing truly productive done, its all just for profit, all just for show and in reality mostly done to simply maintain the power pyramid.

Slowly somewhere out there in the cold void there is a 10 mile wide rock with our name on it.
When it comes will we say it costs too much to stop it?

and Justice for All wrote:
and Justice for All wrote:

There is nothing in those two posts that doesn't resonate with me, unfortunately. I'd love to be more optimistic about it all but I'm not.

andyh wrote: I think it's more absurd to have a metaphysical discussion about money

I trade money for food, the producers have little use of my administration skills.

So you do your IT job for fun or for money?
From the above statement you propose we go back to the period just after we were apes, when we still carried around bags of commodities to barter and trade with?

The people making bags will do alright [so begins the cycle again].

Guevarista wrote: You're programmed to make that response.
Yet the money itself is purely in your mind, so how can the discussion not be metaphysical?
You're trading a notion for reality.
Absolutely! And is that not completely bonkers?
Are my skills even worth these useless debt notes if all I do is contribute a little more to everyones slavery?
Nope, I propose we start asking ourselves what we can actually do with our skills and resources we have to hand instead of what money we have to hand.
You'll find the imagination runs out before the resources do.

Why use bags if you can create objects in the place of use and not have to carry them anywhere in the first place?

andyh wrote:
That's something practically everyone agrees with, not many of us ever in our lifetimes ask ourselves what we can do to change the status quo with our money, nobody willing to change things has enough to do it with, there are skills required for that least of all the ability to use it effectively for the most good when you have it, that's why we organise politically.

Let's talk idealism for a minute then if your into metaphysics:Would you agree with the bolded aims of the UN Charter?
Do you think they are realistic aims if not what are the obstacles to achieving them?

Guevarista wrote: The United Nations was formed in 1945, here's a list of US military action since then:

IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north.
YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Nuclear threat, naval Response to shoot-down of US plane.
URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY 1948 Nuclear Threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
CHINA 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against seige.
GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
LEBANON l958 Troops, naval Army & Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA l958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY l961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
IRAQ 1963 Command operation CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Army & Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles African Americans, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES l968 Troops After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA l973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gassing of captured ship Mayagüez, 28 troops die when copter shot down.
ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions. 241 Marines killed when Shi'a rebel bombs barracks.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple Qaddafi gov't.
BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war, defending reflagged tankers and shooting down civilian jet.
LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ 1990-91 Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
IRAQ 1991-2003 Bombing, naval No-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south; constant air strikes and naval-enforced economic sanctions
LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI 1994 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Troops at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ 1998 Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole, docked in Aden, bombed.
MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency. More than 30,000 U.S. troops and numerous private security contractors carry our occupation.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES 2002-? Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into combat missions in Sulu Archipelago, west of Mindanao.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Saddam regime toppled in Baghdad. More than 250,000 U.S. personnel participate in invasion. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi'ite insurgencies. More than 160,000 troops and numerous private contractors carry out occupation and build large permanent bases.
LIBERIA 2003 Troops Brief involvement in peacekeeping force as rebels drove out leader.
HAITI 2004-05 Troops, naval Marines & Army land after right-wing rebels oust elected President Aristide, who was advised to leave by Washington.
PAKISTAN 2005-? Missiles, bombing, covert operation CIA missile and air strikes and Special Forces raids on alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban refuge villages kill multiple civilians. Drone attacks also on Pakistani Mehsud network.
SOMALIA 2006-? Missiles, naval, troops, command operation Special Forces advise Ethiopian invasion that topples Islamist government; AC-130 strikes, Cruise missile attacks and helicopter raids against Islamist rebels; naval blockade against "pirates" and insurgents.
SYRIA 2008 Troops Special Forces in helicopter raid 5 miles from Iraq kill 8 Syrian civilians
YEMEN 2009-? Missiles, command operation Cruise missile attack on Al Qaeda kills 49 civilians; Yemeni military assaults on rebels
LIBYA 2011-? Bombing, missiles, command operation NATO coordinates air strikes and missile attacks against Qaddafi government during uprising by rebel army.

How many times has the US mainland been attacked in this period? Once, and there are doubts over what extent this attack might have been facilitated by the US military-industrial complex. Where has the UN been? Passing resolutions to help facilitate it.

And this is just one nation; Britain has been directly involved in the slaughter of ten-million people since the Second World War.

And it's not driven by ideology, or beliefs, or different systems of government, or territorial issues, it's driven simply by the greed of a relative handful of people. Soon the UN will pass a resolution enabling military intervention in Syria, as they did in Iraq and Libya, and probably Iran after that, although this may be lead by a pre-emptive Israeli strike. It will never stop until every last drop of oil, every grain of mineral, every square yard of land that has economic value has been seized, and people have given their lives and been slaughtered to acquire it.

Guevarista wrote:
The problem with infrastructure programs is that always end up benefiting the 1%. They need roads, rails, ports, airports (etc) to move their goods and conduct their business more efficiently, who pays for the infrastructure? Every tax payer, mostly low and middle income that’ll never use that infrastructure for anything other than perhaps traveling from A to B. On top of that, who has to labor to build and maintain the infrastructure?

It would be only fair if you’d make businesses pay a premium for their commercial use of the infrastructure and make that cost non-transferable to the consumer. Of course they’ll scream bloody murder, but as things stand today the people that are forced to pay for state funded infrastructure have no say and no means to complain, let alone have any rights to refuse to contribute.

Government shouldn’t be an entity that facilitates commerce. But that is precisely what it’s become (or perhaps always was).

wake_up_bomb wrote: I find that quite a good post, so you think an obstacle to the United Nations achieving it's aims is the power and non-cooperation of Anglo-American Imperialism?

I think the way both countries are traditionally governed by the interests of Capital precludes their input from being constructive or peaceful on the world scale, your list is a good example, I totally agree with your closing paragraph, I'd just say if politics and the State remain the tool of the money motivated, bourgeois interests then your dystopic vision will become a reality, but I think this again relates back to the point about the developing consciousness of everyday people, we now know we have more in common with people on the other side of the world who want peace but speak a completely different language, than people (the interests of capital) in our own country that want war, opposition to another war would be huge imo.

and Justice for All wrote: Good post, I don't disagree but I don't perceive the current situation as fixed or concrete, I think government or some communal equivalent to a government has a role to play in the planning and application of commerce for the common need.
Government really should be an antidote to the 1%, the more the interests governing are people/socially motivated, the more they reflect the interests of the masses of people the better, business and industry know that though, and have vast networks for subversion, insurrection, assassination etc, lobbying groups and so on within government and important positions in the state, groups like the Pilgrim Society, Bilderberg, Trilateral Commission etc.

So yes I agree Government investment reflects the interests of the 1% but that's by no means a fixed or unchangeable reality.