I'd say "evil" is severely dysfunctional. This at least suggests a possible solution if we were able to empathise with such severe dysfunction. Dismissing it as "evil" just seems a bit "case closed, nothing to do with us" and suggests it's an innate trait. Given the right/wrong circumstances I reckon we could all be pushed into performing an act of "evil".

The 2 men drugging and raping me have at some level bought into the idea that sex=power, they haven't spawned that notion from the "evil" within, it came from external influences.

Guevarista wrote:
I asked, what would you do? If you're human and have emotions, you'd be so shocked and overcome with rage and grief at the sight of your loved one, that any thoughts of empathising with the man who commited the act would go right out of the window.

And who said that act of barbarity is a symptom of something larger? It might be a scary thought, but there are people out there that can't be "fixed" by any amount of empathy and understanding.

And as for "judge him and turn evil", in all probability, he would attack me, witness, he'd also want to get the fuck out of there. "you seem to have caved my cheekbone in with your hammer, shhh, it's okay, let's talk about it".

Guevarista wrote:
Yes - I do consider the actions of the two people I described to be evil. I never said they couldn't be understood - please show me where I did if I'm mistaken. I said some people are motivated by getting a thrill from hurting others. And yes, I think it would be a waste of time showing empathy to those people. Though there'll always be plenty of do-gooders around who'll want to molly-coddle and make excuses for them - but I don't share that inkling.

The root of the impulse to gut them (which, incidentally, contrary to your previous post, I never said was 'right') is that they would suffer for their savage and unprovoked attack, and not have the chance to do it to anyone else - as opposed to either getting away scot free, or being molly-coddled by bleeding hearts who would like to portray them somehow as 'victims of society'.

irre, I answered, i'd treat the symptom immediately, which to a degree does include being overcome with rage, but I;m a martial artist so I try to remain in control and determined on my objectives which with powers of defense you do gain the ability to develop, reactions turn from instinctive responses to more effective ones.

For instance that individual has been sent to shake you up after releasing a new book, he doesn't find you at home likes your wife, by killing, seriously maiming him you don't learn what he's doing there, you improve your defense strategy overall by increasing awareness of the environment and forces acting against you

Guev, I'm talking about knowing without out a shadow of a doubt that he did it, catching him red handed. No misunderstanding, or book releases
Besides he could basically be built like Fedor Emelianenko, no amount of Bruce Lee stuff is going to help in that situation...although the awareness and self control would hopefully stop you from rushing him and trying to grab him or something, it would hopefully give you the presence of mind to pick up the poker or whatever and ram it into his eye...or guts Yes, we are now getting into the realms of the ridiculous Life is ugly, and nasty, and vicious, as well as gentle and beautiful, in fucked up situations, we react in fucked up, albiet often justified ways.
Plus, if the bastard happens to have murdered his last victim, by receiving your justice, you'll have possibly saved many others from the same fate, that is a good thing.

That's "evil"!

Gilly wrote: One would hope people wouldn't get away scott free for rape in a modern police state.

That's the kind of thing a hardline catholic would self flagellate for admitting, to me your impulse is the proof that violence begets violence, it's a cycle by not following through with your impulse you managed to break, you didn't deprive somebody of a brother/father/son etc. they will be arrested and studied/monitored.

oioioi wrote: People who believe in "good and evil" can do Evil to "evil" people because they're Good, it's in the bible or someshit.

So are we using martial arts to get to the bottom of things, rather than empathy? Damn - I knew I should have kept going to that karate class.

Though it's probably no help being a black-belt, when the drugs you've unknowingly swallowed with your lager render you incapable of movement - apart from your eyes, which can still function perfectly to observe both what's happening, and the blade lying next to you that you can't reach out for, but your attackers can if they get the whim!

oioioi wrote:
I call that, self defence, and swift justice

irrepressible wrote: Empathy is not gentle and beautiful it's a realistic defence strategy for human civilisation to protect itself from self destruction.

Guevarista wrote:
Take the concept of good and evil out of the equation...he kills my wife, I kill him...what's the problem? It's neither right nor wrong, it just is?

"Did you enjoy my wife"? "Sit down, have a nice cup of tea, and tell me aaaall about it"

Gilly wrote: This is your dualistic good and evil mindset at work, now I;;m being drugged and raped because I don't believe in good and evil and that must mean people are allowed to do whatever they want to me

Self defence enables you to improve upon impulsive reactions to immediate and potential threats.

Under a morality influenced justice system a women could be sentenced to murder for defending herself from a rape,"two men found murdered by woman" the more is known about all of the evidence, the more you can empathise with why somebody was driven to gut these guys, she didn't just wake up one day evil and go and do something evil because evil is secret and mysterious and just pops up all over the place in unconnected mysterious ways.

Guevarista wrote:
I don't think there was ever any doubt that violence begets violence.

I couldn't follow through my impulse, because whatever they'd slipped in my drink wouldn't allow me to move.

And believe me, there are many situations in which the perpetrators do get off scot free. I don't wish to divulge further details of my own personal horror story, but those two did get away scot free.

I actually could have tracked them down afterwards and taken revenge, but chose to stay out of harms way. I wish I'd handled things very differently. I wouldn't be a bit surprised it those two shits have no regrets, and just fond, sick memories.

Now, you go ahead and be as protective and empathetic as you please towards scum like that, but I don't think you can come up with an argument that will alter my perceptions.

geuv...are you Data out of Star Trek TNG?

*Studying the scene of the brutal murder of your wife impassionately* "Intriguing".

Guevarista wrote:
Owned? That's some twisted logic there, Gue.

There's a mammoth difference between lashing out in self-defence or defence of a loved one, and hurting people for jollies.

to be fair i deserve to be mocked for engaging in your hypothetical bullshit.

"Take the con­cept of good and evil out of the equation…he kills my wife, I kill him…what’s the prob­lem? It’s nei­ther right nor wrong, it just is?"

Yes that's what i've been telling you, no objective right or wrong, good or evil exist, glad we agree.

Guevarista wrote:
Starting to get pissed off are you? or does that concept not exist either?

Guevarista wrote:
Frankly, that doesn't even make any sense. However, I can categorically advise you that no thought remotely similar to that was going through my head at the time. And also, your inappropriate facepalms etc are very revealing of a distinct lack of empathy towards me personally, considering the subject matter.
Guevarista wrote:
I'm not knocking self-defence. Only you were indicating earlier that you'd be using the moves to extract information regarding the theft of your imaginary book - which doesn't sound very empathetic.

Also, as I said, it's no help when a complete stranger slips something in your drink without your knowledge, which removes your ability to move or speak.
Guevarista wrote:
Whereas the 2 guys mentioned actually did just wake up one day and go and do something evil.

Plus we weren't talking about the justice system anyway - we were talking about us all projecting empathy indiscriminately at everybody.

Interesting last page.....


And relax.....

The notion of empathising with someone who has already comitted atrocity is a tough one for me. In any of the scenarios outlined, i as pretty much a pacifist, would batter the living shit out of them.....or die trying. I wouldn't consider that makes me unable to empathise enough either.

As i said earlier though, i do consider that empathy is capable of helping avoid someone going so psycho that they think drugging someone is an option. Every psycho that goes that far or anywhere near it is a sign of the failings of our communities in my book.