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TOPIC: Time

Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 17:56 #61

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ok so i read some things basically stating there is no edge of the universe and therefore no center to the universe

and this page
https://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/nocenter.html

everything is expanding away from each other equally
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Violence is not the answer, it is the question. the answer is yes.
Last Edit: 24 Dec 2012 17:57 by batou.
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 18:02 #62

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So thats the big bang gone then aint it :D
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 18:08 #63

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hmm, i dont think so, because none of that made it invalid did it?
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Violence is not the answer, it is the question. the answer is yes.
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 18:19 #64

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Can you show me how the big bang theory isn't fatally holed by the notion of a universe with no boundary and no centre point from which it has radiated?
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 18:20 #65

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We'll get to the bottom of this :uk: it may take quite some time though :clock: :oldfart:
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 18:21 #66

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Haha I see what you did there :D
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 18:31 #67

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i'll get back to you on this dubs. i gotta run and deliver presents to all the good children.
my limbless friend will die alone
a torso of flesh upon the throne

Violence is not the answer, it is the question. the answer is yes.
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 19:00 #68

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dubmeup wrote:
Can you show me how the big bang theory isn't fatally holed by the notion of a universe with no boundary and no centre point from which it has radiated?

Actually this is where it gets a bit itchy and scratchy...
The theory is only applicable to the 'observable' universe, it was never meant to explain the existence of the entire universe only the observable one...

I could perhaps go for the idea that there are white holes that pop into existence at VAST distances across the universe and at vast timescales explode out matter now and then.

/shrugs :D

There might be many more such events and even one going on now but its at such a vast distance that we can't see it and possibly also not enough of a long enough time gone by for us to see it yet due to the distance :D
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 19:16 #69

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dubmeup wrote:
The question of what is the universe expanding into is imo crucial.
Even Nasa state that it's quite likely there is no edge, no boundary to the universe and that the universe may well be infinitely huge.
Well if that's the case, you can dispense with the big bang for a start :roll:
You can also dispense with any concerns about the laws of thermodynamics :roll:

If there IS an edge then yes you can keep both the big bang and the LofT but then you absolutely DO have to answer the questions of what did this teeny dot that everything emerged from exist in and what is the universe expanding into...which is just crazy to think of. I can't see how any serious scientist or thinker would even go there...But yet we are told the Big Bang is fact etc etbloody cetera

An edge suggests one thing ending and another starting so the obvious question at the edge of the universe what is beyond the edge.

I have no problem conceiving infinity for this reason, to my mind there is always something else defining any 'edge' and so on at each 'edge'. Absolute nothingness I cannot perceive as this whole lot appearing from nothing is an oxymoron, at the very least nothing contained the impetus/inertia/will/desire to become something.
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 19:33 #70

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dubmeup wrote:
Can you show me how the big bang theory isn't fatally holed by the notion of a universe with no boundary and no centre point from which it has radiated?

If it's constantly expanding, doesn't that mean that at one point it would have had to start expanding from source?
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 19:38 #71

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Space Bandit wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
Can you show me how the big bang theory isn't fatally holed by the notion of a universe with no boundary and no centre point from which it has radiated?

If it's constantly expanding, doesn't that mean that at one point it would have had to start expanding from source?

Thats only if you assume there was a source :D
Our brains can't handle the concept of there always being something in existence, it had to be made or come from something else. :D
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 19:45 #72

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Space Bandit wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
Can you show me how the big bang theory isn't fatally holed by the notion of a universe with no boundary and no centre point from which it has radiated?

If it's constantly expanding, doesn't that mean that at one point it would have had to start expanding from source?

Not necessarily. One explanation for example is that of the torus:

Torsionanimated


If this were the 'shape' of the universe we could see the expansion we observe without there having been a start point as it were.
If that were so though, at certain points you would expect to also see contraction.

That gif isn't perfect because it is obviously a 3d representation. It gives a 'false' impression of a boundary, we are near the point where most heads, including mine, start to explode :D
Last Edit: 24 Dec 2012 19:48 by dubs.
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 19:53 #73

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andyh wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
Can you show me how the big bang theory isn't fatally holed by the notion of a universe with no boundary and no centre point from which it has radiated?

If it's constantly expanding, doesn't that mean that at one point it would have had to start expanding from source?

Thats only if you assume there was a source :D
Our brains can't handle the concept of there always being something in existence, it had to be made or come from something else. :D

If the universe expands, that means that in those quadrants the universe didn't previously exist. So the source would be - the existing universe!
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 19:56 #74

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dubmeup wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
Can you show me how the big bang theory isn't fatally holed by the notion of a universe with no boundary and no centre point from which it has radiated?

If it's constantly expanding, doesn't that mean that at one point it would have had to start expanding from source?

Not necessarily. One explanation for example is that of the torus:

Torsionanimated




If this were the 'shape' of the universe we could see the expansion we observe without there having been a start point as it were.
If that were so though, at certain points you would expect to also see contraction.

That gif isn't perfect because it is obviously a 3d representation. It gives a 'false' impression of a boundary, we are near the point where most heads, including mine, start to explode :D

So the expansion is actually just folding back in on itself? Wouldn't that mean that there are boundaries?
/scratch.
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 20:04 #75

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As I said, that gif does give the impression of boundaries yes, it's an imperfect representation of what I'm trying to get across.

It's fricking hard to envisage :think:

That as above so below adage sort of helps, sort of....

I'm trying to find a fractal gif that sort of shows what I mean but I can't find one yet. But kind of try imagining that every point is the centre of the universe and energy radiates from it and then imagine how every point interacts with the next point, how those radiations would interact.. Arggghhh my brain.
Last Edit: 24 Dec 2012 20:12 by dubs.
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 20:08 #76

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dubmeup wrote:
As I said, that gif does give the impression of boundaries yes, it's an imperfect representation of what I'm trying to get across.

It's fricking hard to envisage :think:

It's not just the gif, but the idea of simultaneous expansion & contraction.
If we could somehow go beyond the expanding univese, or within an area of contraction... we would be the warriors at the edge of time. :cool:
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 20:11 #77

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Space Bandit wrote:
andyh wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
Can you show me how the big bang theory isn't fatally holed by the notion of a universe with no boundary and no centre point from which it has radiated?

If it's constantly expanding, doesn't that mean that at one point it would have had to start expanding from source?

Thats only if you assume there was a source :D
Our brains can't handle the concept of there always being something in existence, it had to be made or come from something else. :D

If the universe expands, that means that in those quadrants the universe didn't previously exist. So the source would be - the existing universe!

They're just talking about the expansion of matter within the universe.
The universe ofc encompasses more than just matter, it also includes total empty vacuum :D

The way its worded though is that the fabric of the universe itself is expanding and not the matter into the emptiness.
/epic brainfart

LOL!!!
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 20:26 #78

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andyh wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
andyh wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
Can you show me how the big bang theory isn't fatally holed by the notion of a universe with no boundary and no centre point from which it has radiated?

If it's constantly expanding, doesn't that mean that at one point it would have had to start expanding from source?

Thats only if you assume there was a source :D
Our brains can't handle the concept of there always being something in existence, it had to be made or come from something else. :D

If the universe expands, that means that in those quadrants the universe didn't previously exist. So the source would be - the existing universe!

They're just talking about the expansion of matter within the universe.
The universe ofc encompasses more than just matter, it also includes total empty vacuum :D

The way its worded though is that the fabric of the universe itself is expanding and not the matter into the emptiness.
/epic brainfart

LOL!!!

So the universe doesn't expand, just the matter within?
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 20:34 #79

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dubmeup wrote:

Torsionanimated




That gif isn't perfect...

It's pretty fuckin' good though!

I think the big bang was only allowed to pass as theory because it also suggests a beginning and miraculous moment of creation so doesn't undermine most recognised religious thinking. That's why I quite like Taoism.
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Re: Time 24 Dec 2012 20:35 #80

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Space Bandit wrote:
andyh wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
andyh wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
Can you show me how the big bang theory isn't fatally holed by the notion of a universe with no boundary and no centre point from which it has radiated?

If it's constantly expanding, doesn't that mean that at one point it would have had to start expanding from source?

Thats only if you assume there was a source :D
Our brains can't handle the concept of there always being something in existence, it had to be made or come from something else. :D

If the universe expands, that means that in those quadrants the universe didn't previously exist. So the source would be - the existing universe!



They're just talking about the expansion of matter within the universe.
The universe ofc encompasses more than just matter, it also includes total empty vacuum :D

The way its worded though is that the fabric of the universe itself is expanding and not the matter into the emptiness.
/epic brainfart

LOL!!!

So the universe doesn't expand, just the matter within?

And the dark matter in between :D
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