Capitalism did not create access to things. People did.

Guevarista wrote:
Ooops mondragon :p

"Just less than a third of the employees are actual co-operative members at present due to an expansion outside the Basque region. The MCC plans to raise this percentage to 75 per cent in the coming years through a process of cooperativization. However, the local membership rates are increasing, and between 1997 and 2004, the amount of member-owners doubled. (Williams )

andyh wrote: But does it though?
"The Corporation’s companies manufacture consumer goods, capital goods, industrial components, products and systems for construction, and services to business."
How do these products benefit the majority of Basque communities>?
Do you accept there is a managerial/Bureaucratic class that determines exactly what is produced by Mondragon corp?

What in your opinion is the role of the CEO of MOndragon?

Why don't you do a 10 planks of Mondragon Thread for your preferred form of Capitalism?

What in your opinion is the role of the CEO of MOndragon?

Why don't you do a 10 planks of Mondragon Thread for your preferred form of Capitalism?

Guevarista wrote:
W.D.Y.?

Guevarista wrote:
Fuck me I thought I could write a long sentence! Although tbf yours is only as long cos of it's bad punctuation

See I wouldn't consider it an idealistic comment to say that we could literally consign all forms of currency to the bin, today. I personally think there is no need to wait around for conditions such as "when labour power serves labour's interests/requirement, when people have the freedom, and means to produce what is needed required for themselves". In fact I consider that arse about face. Ditching money would create the conditions for those things to be more possible.

No, I don't agree. I see that kind of thinking as just perpetuating class based mentality. My head is coming at it from a place way beyond class. Class is an illusion. An illusion that class based thinking maintains.

dubmeup wrote: So to clarify, you're way too highly evolved to even bother reading Marx or formulate an actual argument against class based historical analysis?
"I wouldn't consider it an idealistic comment to say that we could literally consign all forms of currency to the bin, today. I personally think there is no need to wait around for conditions"
So how would I be able to purchase basic commodities without money?
Why would corporations that exist to make money produce commodities where there is no money to be made selling them?

You're talking about great famine stuff there mate.

So to clarify, you're way too highly evolved to even bother reading Marx or formulate an actual argument against class based historical analysis?

"I wouldn't consider it an idealistic comment to say that we could literally consign all forms of currency to the bin, today. I personally think there is no need to wait around for conditions"
So how would I be able to purchase basic commodities without money?

Why would corporations that exist to make money produce commodities where there is no money to be made selling them?

You're talking about great famine stuff there mate.

dubmeup wrote:
Me neither. I wonder what they did for medical aid

Guevarista wrote:
Is it a bird? Is it a plane? Nope it's just a strawman...
Um, why would you want to?Um, corporations would be bye bye over night
Why? Would food disappear with the currency? Would those who know how to grow it? The land? The skills?
You're sounding like a capitalist masquerading as some kind of a revolutionary here gue...

OK, accuse me of things.

I'm just being realistic, I want to buy things because I've been homeless, i've lived without gas, running water, a bed, it's actually not as favourable imo.

Do you see the agricultural sector thriving in South London or mass exodus of the cities to the green pastures of Sussex and Cornwall?
Gonna be a lot of very scared white land owning militiamen dreading that prospect I can assure you, i know as a resident of one of those aforementioned counties.

Say you did all this tomorrow, would the inevitable refugees of the city build houses, using what materials?

dubmeup wrote:
Well tbf I went as far as I can sincerely go without leaping into realms of idealism or utopianism.
I told you why Engels and Marx critiqued Anarchism; as being theoretically and physically ineffective in creating the material conditions in which the transcendence of monetary exchange as the fundamental human interaction would become possible, that would be through generations of Dictatorship of the Proletariat:
You can only realistically talk about abolition of the exchange medium when you have made irrelevant the idea of financial exchange, ie when labour power serves labour's interests/requirement, when people have the freedom, and means to produce what is needed required for themselves, they will have rendered profit motivation a redundant and outdated concept, Capitalism mode of production has provided the material basis for humanity to transcend purely financial, property based relations, where there is enough for everyone, but the mode of production serves the same interests that benefit from ideological Conservatism and dominate politics/corporate lobbying, financial backing etc, so until we hold the power and production serves communal requirements it's idealism and material conditions come before that.

In my view you work with what's available so fundamentally you back the interests of the working class wherever they are and whatever form that takes, agreed?

What again?

No it wasn't. Nor was twice or three or four times...

Class is an illusion.

Because we're living under the dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie.

Which is to say profit motivation governs production/distribution.