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TOPIC: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life...

Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 13:54 #41

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.......... wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:
Rather than elevating the value of insect life, there is every chance that notions such as the one in the OP can be used to devalue of human life: i.e. no more than that of insects'.

People who talk of humans as no more important than bugs rarely mean well.

Don't worry it's probably just ingrained religious arrogance that makes you feel that way.

Nobody is elevating the value of insect life or trying to devalue a human life.

Same type of arrogance that assumes dogs don't go to heaven and walk in clouds when they die.

Or that humans are the only creatures on earth that have souls ect...


lol...at that arrogant nonsense...

Would you like a hat and scarf put on your strawman?

I happen to believe that I may see my dogs and cats again, God willing.

And John Paul II in 1990 also said that animals have souls.

So take your pre-conceived notions of Xtianity and shove em up your A-soul.
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 13:55 #42

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batou wrote:
ban cars ban shovels ban bleach
equal rights for everything
tigers can stare at the sun for food, i read it on dif

:cool: :chuckle:
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 13:59 #43

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andyh wrote:
.......... wrote:
noseymutegirl wrote:
What about cockroaches?

That's a good example...

If a person kills 20 cockroaches with a chemical spray is that any different than what Adam Lanza did?

Does the universe judge them the same or is religion just another form of human arrogance.

If you drive a car and 20 bugs hit the windscreen is that any different?

I assume the universe would not judge a person any different.

Say an old person accidentally loses control of a car and plows into a crowd full of people.

Or if a truck full of cows loses control and gets overturned causing all the cows to die.
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 14:01 #44

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.......... wrote:
andyh wrote:
.......... wrote:
noseymutegirl wrote:
What about cockroaches?

That's a good example...

If a person kills 20 cockroaches with a chemical spray is that any different than what Adam Lanza did?

Does the universe judge them the same or is religion just another form of human arrogance.

If you drive a car and 20 bugs hit the windscreen is that any different?

I assume the universe would not judge a person any different.

Say an old person accidentally loses control of a car and plows into a crowd full of people.

Or if a truck full of cows loses control and gets overturned causing all the cows to die.

The human invented the car and drives it knowing full well it will hit bugs.

At no point do they need to lose control of the car to hit the bugs.
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 14:07 #45

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mikey mikey wrote:

And John Paul II in 1990 also said that animals have souls.

Sorry, I was not aware of John Paul II having the special ability to make such a distinction.
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 14:09 #46

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.......... wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:

And John Paul II in 1990 also said that animals have souls.

Sorry, I was not aware of John Paul II having the special ability to make such a distinction.

I wasn't aware the universe had any special ability to make such distinctions lol.
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 14:14 #47

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.......... wrote:
Or if a truck full of cows loses control and gets overturned causing all the cows to die.
Where are the cows being taken?
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 14:26 #48

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dont be stupid cows cant drive
my limbless friend will die alone
a torso of flesh upon the throne

Violence is not the answer, it is the question. the answer is yes.
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 14:33 #49

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Because we're humans and we can think like humans and empathise like humans, we invariably put humans first. So I, like I-Baster, would save a baby from a burning house before an animal. On the other hand, if it was a choice between David Cameron and one of my cats, it's crispy prime minister time. My familial bond to my pets trumps some total cunt who has blood on has hands. Though that's maybe a bad example, because if was Cameron in the burning house I'd be tempted to reach for a can of petrol, but you get the point.

But unless you're religious in which case God may have elevated man above other life forms, there's no reason to think we're 'better' than anything else. We've invented TV, cars, Girls aloud and the power rangers, but a cockroach doesn't give a shit about any of that. A cockroach lives in its cockroach world operating from its cockroach frame of reference. We live in human world operating from a human frame of reference. The universe doesn't care if we kill all the cockroaches, they kill us or we blow ourselves up - the earth will still orbit the sun, aliens a thousand light years away will continue whatever it is aliens a thousand light years away do and billions of years will continue to roll by in the universe. We need moral frames of reference to survive and because life is better if it's nice and fair, but unless you have a theological framework with a supreme deity behind everything, iot's all just a construct - the universe does not care about you more than it does a cockroach - people care about people - which is for the best - but people can still respect non-human life. Indeed, I would argue it is important. Empathy with non-humans is one of the skills that makes us what we like to think of as human. After all, children who hurt animals for fun are much more likely to later enjoy hurting people for fun. It's about empathy and respect for the less powerful

I don't eat animals because I don't need to - if I needed to to survive it would be different. I may kill an insect infestation to prevent disease, but if a housefly comes in the room I'll catch it and put it outside rather than kill it - it's just trying to live its life and it's just as easy to remove it as casually kill it.

If you look at what people do to people, it's invariably something they've done to animals first. It's about exercising power over those weaker than ourselves. I'd hurt an animal to protect myself or survive, but I don't want to hurt any creature I don't need to.
Last Edit: 26 Dec 2012 14:35 by dogsmilk.
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 14:35 #50

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.......... wrote:
Sorry, I was not aware of John Paul II having the special ability to make such a distinction.

As far as I can see, he expressed a theological opinion.

Another strawman.

You seem to just "know" what everybody else is thinking.

How very clever of you.

And best of all, you never retract anything when you are proved wrong! :cheer:
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 14:39 #51

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batou wrote:
dont be stupid cows cant drive



:killinme:
Cow 01


real american vs sureal american

sureal american WINS!

:ownd:
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 14:44 #52

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dogsmilk wrote:
Because we're humans and we can think like humans and empathise like humans, we invariably put humans first. So I, like I-Baster, would save a baby from a burning house before an animal. On the other hand, if it was a choice between David Cameron and one of my cats, it's crispy prime minister time. My familial bond to my pets trumps some total cunt who has blood on has hands. Though that's maybe a bad example, because if was Cameron in the burning house I'd be tempted to reach for a can of petrol, but you get the point.

But unless you're religious in which case God may have elevated man above other life forms, there's no reason to think we're 'better' than anything else. We've invented TV, cars, Girls aloud and the power rangers, but a cockroach doesn't give a shit about any of that. A cockroach lives in its cockroach world operating from its cockroach frame of reference. We live in human world operating from a human frame of reference. The universe doesn't care if we kill all the cockroaches, they kill us or we blow ourselves up - the earth will still orbit the sun, aliens a thousand light years away will continue whatever it is aliens a thousand light years away do and billions of years will continue to roll by in the universe. We need moral frames of reference to survive and because life is better if it's nice and fair, but unless you have a theological framework with a supreme deity behind everything, iot's all just a construct - the universe does not care about you more than it does a cockroach - people care about people - which is for the best - but people can still respect non-human life. Indeed, I would argue it is important. Empathy with non-humans is one of the skills that makes us what we like to think of as human. After all, children who hurt animals for fun are much more likely to later enjoy hurting people for fun. It's about empathy and respect for the less powerful

I don't eat animals because I don't need to - if I needed to to survive it would be different. I may kill an insect infestation to prevent disease, but if a housefly comes in the room I'll catch it and put it outside rather than kill it - it's just trying to live its life and it's just as easy to remove it as casually kill it.

If you look at what people do to people, it's invariably something they've done to animals first. It's about exercising power over those weaker than ourselves. I'd hurt an animal to protect myself or survive, but I don't want to hurt any creature I don't need to.

Great post, thank you for you input in this thread dogsmilk...
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 14:49 #53

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mikey mikey wrote:
.......... wrote:
Sorry, I was not aware of John Paul II having the special ability to make such a distinction.

As far as I can see, he expressed a theological opinion.

theological opinion... :rofl:

John Paul II was just smart enough to realize that if dogs don't get to walk in the clouds with humans when they die the church would lose alot of money from it's potential followers.
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 14:52 #54

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mikey mikey wrote:
You seem to just "know" what everybody else is thinking.

and you prove my point with...
.......... wrote:
John Paul II was just smart enough to realize that if dogs don't get to walk in the clouds with humans when they die the church would lose alot of money from it's potential followers.

you must be some kind of genius!
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 15:11 #55

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dogsmilk wrote:
But unless you're religious in which case God may have elevated man above other life forms,

Why would such an opinion require religion?

Some religions venerate other life forms.
Animals have always been regarded in Buddhist thought as sentient beings, different in their intellectual ability than humans but no less capable of feeling suffering. Furthermore, animals possess Buddha nature (according to the Mahāyāna school) and therefore an equal potential to become enlightened. Moreover, the doctrine of rebirth held that any human could be reborn as an animal, and any animal could be reborn as a human. An animal might be a reborn dead relative, and anybody who looked far enough back through his or her infinite series of lives would eventually perceive every animal to be a distant relative. The Buddha expounded that sentient beings currently living in the animal realm have been our mothers, brothers, sisters, fathers, children, friends in past rebirths. One could not, therefore, make a hard distinction between moral rules applicable to animals and those applicable to humans; ultimately humans and animals were part of a single family. They are all interconnected
.

And I could easily provide further examples.

Secular people may be just as likely elevating humans by considering humaniy to be the highest form of evolution and animals as lower forms on the evolutionary ladder.

Not necessarily of course.

I wouldn't want to make the same mistake you have.
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Last Edit: 26 Dec 2012 15:22 by mikey mikey.
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 15:20 #56

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I think some of the most human superiority mentalities I've ever come across have come from those of a secular disposition mikey. Tiz not unheard of in hardcore Darwinists for example. Then there are of course the secular racists who even go so far as to place one 'race' above another 'race' of the same race.

Which is not to have a pop at secularism (?) or atheism.
Last Edit: 26 Dec 2012 15:23 by dubs.
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 15:20 #57

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mikey mikey wrote:

I wouldn't want to make the same mistake you have.

Oh really...
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 15:24 #58

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.......... wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:

I wouldn't want to make the same mistake you have.

Oh really...

Yes really. I think he is mistaken.
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 15:42 #59

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mikey mikey wrote:
.......... wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:

I wouldn't want to make the same mistake you have.

Oh really...

Yes really. I think he is mistaken.

Well i respect your opinion mikey so i won't be immature and ask for my thread to be locked... ;)

In hope that others here could show the same level of maturity when someone has a different opinion.

Just had to throw that in there...

:yup:
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Last Edit: 26 Dec 2012 15:44 by ...........
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Re: Realizing that all creatures of the Earth have an equal value of life... 26 Dec 2012 15:51 #60

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My father and I both cannot kill insects. I used to spend hours as a kid trying to save them when they got trapped inside or flipped upside-down. I'd cry if i accidentally killed them.
Their lives were always valuable to me.
Call me by any name, any way it's all the same.
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