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Hello 10 Feb 2013 14:43 #61

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i read this, then at the bottom of page where it says random videos.. osho- any one who gives you a belief system is your enemy. so i dont know whether to believe him or not either. but i do want to get this $50 che beret, made in commie china, for sitting in starbucks with my macbook and plot to overthrow the regime. so.. yeah. i kinda just want people to think im all about this shit, but i dont really want to get my hands dirty. thats poor people stuff. i do kinda want to look dirty though.
my limbless friend will die alone
a torso of flesh upon the throne

Violence is not the answer, it is the question. the answer is yes.
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Hello 10 Feb 2013 14:44 #62

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Mike wrote:
hugorune wrote:

To be honest, Guevarista, I just did it to get a reaction. :)


:goat:

I'm happy to miss the gag to hear good music. I do like the sax solo. :cool:

IMO The Soft Parade is their best album and well worth a listen if you haven't already.
Si me puede disparar los conejos, a continuación, puedo disparar fascistas
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Hello 10 Feb 2013 14:52 #63

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dogsmilk wrote:
hugorune wrote:
To be honest, Guevarista, I just did it to get a reaction. :)

Gahhhhh!!!!

:gleek: :killinme: :rofl: :pmsl: :urok: :roflha:

Well, glad you're back Gue - have missed you! :clap: :thumbup:

I'm not, mate.

Apart from his hissy, scweam and scweam pleas to be banned there's the matter of the personal insults being thrown about.

I was hoping to escape that kind of preteen behaviour on this forum. Isn't that what the DIF is for? :)
Si me puede disparar los conejos, a continuación, puedo disparar fascistas
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Hello 10 Feb 2013 15:42 #64

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hugorune wrote:
dogsmilk wrote:
hugorune wrote:
To be honest, Guevarista, I just did it to get a reaction. :)

Gahhhhh!!!!

:gleek: :killinme: :rofl: :pmsl: :urok: :roflha:

Well, glad you're back Gue - have missed you! :clap: :thumbup:

I'm not, mate.

Apart from his hissy, scweam and scweam pleas to be banned there's the matter of the personal insults being thrown about.

I was hoping to escape that kind of preteen behaviour on this forum. Isn't that what the DIF is for? :)

I have no opinion on any of that because I wasn't around until the tail end.

But I think Gue is a thinker who brings a different perspective and I'm glad to see him back because I think he's an interesting guy and my personal experience of him has been positive.

I think "Mike" needs to be taken on the basis of "Mike" because I think whatever the rights and wrongs of previous incarnations, setting off from what happened before is just going to create another drama. Time out, new start & all that.
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Hello 10 Feb 2013 16:20 #65

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dogsmilk wrote:
Mike wrote:
Come now hugo, call me Mike, after all it is my name :)


I find it utterly futile to perpetuate divisions between Anarchists and Socialists in the way the US and British ruling classes encourage, I personally wouldn't run around the countryside burning Churches and killing priests, but I can see why during the Spanish Civil War, Anarchists found such a course of action necessary or at least enjoyable/worth pursuing.

I'm interested in finding the points where Socialists find Anarchism incompatible, where anarchists find socialism incompatible and then trying to understand, hopefully undermine these contradictions.

Libertarian Anarchism, Petit Bourgeois Anarchism and individualism require a bourgeois economy to prosper, collectivization in a socialist economy is fairly incompatible with the Ideal of Individual liberty, individual property rights, rights of appropriation and so on, my point here is ultimately there would have been a reason for Che's treatment of Factions, conspirators, deserters etc, like there was a reason for Anarchists leading the anti clerical terror in Spain.

Ultimately imo this moralistic, emotion based "condemnation" is ideologically motivated, rather than factually based on the material conditions or actual events inevitably more complex than, "Poor Anarchists killed by Marauding Revolutionary Marxists" or "Anarcho Libertarians oppressed under Soviet style dictatorship" etc on what do you base your assumption the leaders of Cuba were wrong to put down counter revolution in this way?

Will you openly condemn the actions of Anarchists throughout history aswell? And from what position as an Anarchist would you condemn the killings of Priests, Nun's etc by Anarchists during the Spanish Civil War?

anarchism Spanish civil War

I see two fundamental incompatabilities - that I can think of offhand anyway -

1/Authority - Socialists tend to want to create a strong state to force through change, anarchists reject this. The anarchist critique is that power will corrupt and simply create a new ruling class - history does confirm this. Also that the new ruling class will lose dynamism and become reactionary and oppressive. Socialists say you need this centralised structure to create effective change - I can at least see where they're coming from.

2/Some strains of anarchism are simply incompatible - like anarcho-capitalism. But I'd argue that's far closer to the status quo than the 'classic' anarchism of Kropotkin and Bakunin anyway - it's more in tune with (just further along than) into all that Ayn Rand American Libertarian vote Ron Paul bullshit. Or like National Anarchism - what the fuck. I think if you're talking compatability it has to be classic anarcho-syndicalism/anarchist communism.

But I'd say it's certainly worthy to try to see eye to eye. I mean, I don't get why anarchists tend to dislike Marx. Why? He was an extraordinary thinker with lots of very relevant things to say. You don't have to uncritically agree with everything he said. Which, ironically, I think is where some Marxists fall down.
Or take David Harvey - he's a Marxist but I think anarchists should be paying attention to him because he's got lots of really interesting things to say about capitalism.

I think the best summation of the Anarchist Marxist dialectic i've seen recently is in the link above about the October Revolution and Anarchism from wiki:
Mikhail Bakunin, the hero of Russian anarchism, had expressed skepticism toward the scientific, excessively rational nature of Marxism. He and his followers preferred a more instinctive form of revolution. One of them, Bill Shatov, described the anarchists as “the romanticists of the Revolution.”
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Hello 10 Feb 2013 17:04 #66

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dogsmilk wrote:
But I think Gue is a thinker who brings a different perspective and I'm glad to see him back because I think he's an interesting guy and my personal experience of him has been positive.

+1
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Hello 10 Feb 2013 17:36 #67

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dogsmilk wrote:

I think "Mike" needs to be taken on the basis of "Mike" because I think whatever the rights and wrongs of previous incarnations, setting off from what happened before is just going to create another drama. Time out, new start & all that.

He's not the first to do it, nor will he be the last so that seems fair enough.
the anorak hides the fact that sean is composed of 95% vaginas
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Hello 12 Feb 2013 14:21 #68

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If you can take me as a new man you're open to the process of evolution.
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Hello 12 Feb 2013 18:50 #69

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Mike wrote:
If you can take me as a new man you're open to the process of evolution.

You evolved into a new man quickly.
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Hello 13 Feb 2013 18:27 #70

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Gilly wrote:
Mike wrote:
If you can take me as a new man you're open to the process of evolution.

You evolved into a new man quickly.
It only takes a minute girl. :killinme:

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Hello 13 Feb 2013 20:58 #71

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Well your bizarre musical taste hasn't evolved.

Have you fallen in love with some poor sod lucky lady then, Mike? Is that why you're a changed man? :fluffy:
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Hello 13 Feb 2013 22:05 #72

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Of course not don't be ridiculous, you know I am not human enough to love another :)
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Hello 14 Feb 2013 12:51 #73

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dogsmilk wrote:
Jeff Rense is a cunt.
:bravo:
thank you St Jude for favours granted
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Hello 17 Feb 2013 19:14 #74

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Further to the Anarchist Marxist schism:
the theme of subject-predicate or being-thotrght inversion is to
be found in Feuerbach does not, of course, mean that it was an
invention of his, or in any way peculiar to his thought. It is in
fact one of the most profound and ancient themes in philosophical
history, and recurs constantly in the debate between Idealism and
Materialism. Della Volpe, for example, could properly relate
Marx's critique of Hegel to Aristotle's critique of Plato and Gali-
leo's attack on the defenders of Aristotelian-scholastic physics.
Moreover, at the points in his Crilique of Pure Reason where
Kant does most to demolish the older ontology (for example, in
the ' Note on the Amphiboly of Concepts of Reflection'), it is also
possible to see a critique of 'real universals'. Hence, the only
specific contribution which Feuerbach can be held to have made
is a reapplication of one aspect of this tradition in the new con-
text, the way in which he brought it to bear on Hegelianism.
I believe the vital element in this vexed question - the edge which
cuts the Gordian knot - must be sought elsewhere. The true
importance of Marx's early criticism of Hegel lies in the key it
provides for understanding Marx's criticism of the method of
bourgeois economics (and this is why he could recall and confirm
it after he had written Capital).

In Chapter 2 of The Poverty of Philosophy (1847),
'The Metaphysics of Political Economy', this
connection is brought out very well. 'Economic categories are
only the theoretical expressions, the abstractions of the social
relations of production,' says Marx. While Proudhon, on the
other hand, 'holding things upside down like a true philosopher,
sees in actual relations nothing but the incarnation of these
principles'. In this manner, he goes on, 'What Hegel has done for
religion, law, etc., Monsieur Proudhon seeks to do for political
economy.' First of all by dint of abstraction he reduces 'the
substance of everything' into mere 'logical categories'; then,
having hypostatized these abstractions into substances, it is not
too difficult to retrace his steps and present real historical rela-
tionships as the objectification, the embodiment, of such cate-
gories.

Marx concludes:
If we abstract thus from every subject all the alleged accidents,
animate or inanimate, men or things, we are right in saying that in the
final abstraction, the only substance left is the logical categories. Thus
the metaphysicians who, in making these abstractions, think they are
making analyses, and who, the more they detach themselves from things,
imagine themselves to be getting all the nearer to the point of penetrat-
ing to their core - these metaphysicians in turn are right in saying that
things here below are embroideries of which the logical categories
constitute the canvas. This is what distinguishes the philosopher from
the Christian. The Christian, in spite of logic, has orrly one incarrration
of the Logos; the philosopher has never finished with incarnations.
as Maurice Dobb has pointed out in Chapter 5 of his
Political Economy and Capitalism (1937), its significance is far
wider. 'In making abstraction of particular elements in a situation,'
he writes, 'there are two roads along which one can proceed.'
The first is that which 'builds abstraction on the exclusion of
certain features which are present in any actual situation, either
because they are the more variable or because they are quantita-
tively of lesser importance in determining the course of events. To
omit them from consideration makes the resulting calculation no
more than an imperfect approximation to reality, but neverthe-
less makes it a very much more reliable guide than if the major
factors had been omitted and only the minor influences taken into
account.
'The second is the road which bases abstraction' not on
any evidence of fact as to what features in a situation are essential
and what are inessential, but simply on the formal procedure of
combining the properties common to a heterogeneous assortment
of situations and building abstraction out of analogy.'34

What characterizes this second method (with its indeterminate
or generic abstractions, as compared to the determinate, specific
ones of the first) is, Dobb says, that - 'in all such abstract systems
there exists the serious danger of hypostatizing one's concepts',
that is of 'regarding the postulated relations as the determining
ones in any actual situation' and so running the grave risk of
'introducing, unnoticed, purely imaginary assumptions' and
interpolating surreptitiously all the concrete, particular features
discarded in the first place.
He continues:
All too frequently the propositions which are products of this mode
of abstraction have little more than formal meaning . . . But those who
use such propositions and build corollaries upon them are seldom
mindful of this limitation, and in applying them as 'laws' of the real
world invariably extract from them more meaning than their emptiness
ofreal content can possibly hold.
The resemblance to Marx's argument in the Critique could
hardly be closer. Dobb observes how for some economists
abstractions become independent of all reference to realities, and
are then hypostatized into 'laws' valid' for all situations, however
heterogeneous and disparate these may be.
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Hello 17 Feb 2013 19:26 #75

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Subsequently the
same economists, trying to extract substance from their 'laws',
are compelled to bring in 'unnoticed', in underhand fashion,
whatever particular content their position requires.
Finally, after referring to Marx's early writings, Dobb concludes:
The examples he (Marx) cited were mainly drawn from the concepts
of religion and idealist philosophy . . . In the realm of economic thought
(where one might at first glance least suspect it) it is not difficult to see a
parallel tendency at work. One might think it harmless enough to make
abstraction of certain aspects of exchange-relations in order to analyse
them in isolation from social relations of production. But what actually
occurs is that once this abstraction has been made it is given an inde-
pendent existence as though it represented the essence of reality,
instead of one contingent facet of reality. Concepts become hypostatized;
the abstraction acquires a fetishistic character, to use Marx's phrase.
Here seems to lie the crucial danger of this method and the secret of
the confusions which have enmeshed modern economic thought.

What economists do, says Marx, is to substitute for the specific institutions
and processes of modern economy, generic or universal categories
supposed to be valid for all times and places; then the former
come to be seen as realizations, incarnations of the latter. His
reflections on the concept of'production' in the first paragraph
of the 1857 introduction to the Grundrisse are interesting in this
connection. In any scientific analysis of the capitalist mode of
production, Marx states,
the elements which are not general and common, must be separated
out from the determinations valid for production as such, so that in
their unity - which arises already from the identity of the subject,
humanity, and of the object, nature - their essential difference is not
forgotten. The whole profundity of those modern economists who
demonstrate the eternity and harmoniousness of the existing social
relations lies in this forgetting" For example. No production possible
without an instrument of production, even if this instrument is only the
hand. No production without stored-up, past labour, even if it is only
the facility gathered together and concentrated in the hand of the
savage by repeated practice. Capital is, among other things, also an
instrument of production, also objectified, past labour. Therefore
capital is a general, eternal relation of nature; that is, if I leave out just
the specific quality which alone makes 'instrument of production' and
'stored-up labour' into capital.

John Stuart Mill, for example (Marx continues) typically presents
'production as distinct from distribution etc., as encased in
eternal natural laws independent of history, at which opportunity
bourgeois relations are then quietly smuggled in as the inviolable
natural laws on which society in the abstract is founded'. And
this is indeed, he concludes, 'the more or less conscious purpose
of the whole proceeding'.36

In other words, logical unity takes the place of real difference,
the universal replaces the particular, the eternal category is
substituted for the historically concrete. after which - as the
'more or less conscious aim' of the operation - the concrete is
smuggled in as a consequence and a triumphant embodiment of
the universal

libcom.org/library/intro-Marx-early-writings-Colletti
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