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Consciousness is the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.

It has been defined as: subjectivity, awareness, sentience, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind.

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TOPIC: are you an atheist?

Re: are you an atheist? 07 Aug 2012 19:16 #41

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Mountain wrote:
Interesting stuff, IAAIA. When I first read the Old Testament I was astonished of the actions of 'God', to say the least. It was what made me began to question everything from that point on, especially knowing and witnessing countless people live in fear of this 'God' and believing that in order to go to 'heaven', they must repent and give up their will to think for themselves. I could have sworn heaven was just the sky and stars. And why would a 'loving 'God', the supposed creator of all want anyone to fear 'him' and why be jealous of your own so-called 'creation'? Not buying that.

But anyway, I do find there is some wisdom and good common sense in religious texts and I do not close my mind to them. Whereas you have Mormonism and other religions refusing its members to seek knowledge, which is a form of mind control to me. I

G'day Mountain.

How are you sunshine ?

I've actually read the christian bible (OT & NT) from cover to cover. I wonder how many christians can truthfully make this claim ?

The vast majority of christians that I have spoken to haven't by their own admission. Having had 'cherry-picked' passages read out to them in church, with the interpretation of those passages also supplied, it's no wonder that many of them do not know anything about what the bible actually presents. For instance ...


You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

... and ...

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. Leviticus 20:13

... along with ...

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT

... seriously, what sort of a sick fuck would make a rape victim marry the rapist ?

Oh, that's right, 'God'. :roll:

Kill non-believers, homosexuals, witches, etc, etc. What a 'loving' religious text huh. :roll:

The bible even approves of slavery. :fraid:

The problem is that "there is some wisdom and good common sense in religious texts", which is 'cherry-picked' out of the text to present the religion in a 'positive light', all the while hiding all of the other sick shit that is in it. The 'positive spin' that is put on the religion and religious texts of christianity is one of THE mind control programs that has been perpetrated throughout history.

Here's a quote in the bible from the supposed 'Prince of Peace' ...


Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it. Matthew 10:34–39
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
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Re: are you an atheist? 07 Aug 2012 19:28 #42

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I loves me a bit of Leviticus...always cheers me up no end.

:cry:
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

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Re: are you an atheist? 07 Aug 2012 20:03 #43

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I AM ALL I AM wrote:
Mountain wrote:
Interesting stuff, IAAIA. When I first read the Old Testament I was astonished of the actions of 'God', to say the least. It was what made me began to question everything from that point on, especially knowing and witnessing countless people live in fear of this 'God' and believing that in order to go to 'heaven', they must repent and give up their will to think for themselves. I could have sworn heaven was just the sky and stars. And why would a 'loving 'God', the supposed creator of all want anyone to fear 'him' and why be jealous of your own so-called 'creation'? Not buying that.

But anyway, I do find there is some wisdom and good common sense in religious texts and I do not close my mind to them. Whereas you have Mormonism and other religions refusing its members to seek knowledge, which is a form of mind control to me. I

G'day Mountain.

How are you sunshine ?

I've actually read the christian bible (OT & NT) from cover to cover. I wonder how many christians can truthfully make this claim ?

The vast majority of christians that I have spoken to haven't by their own admission. Having had 'cherry-picked' passages read out to them in church, with the interpretation of those passages also supplied, it's no wonder that many of them do not know anything about what the bible actually presents. For instance ...


You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

... and ...

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. Leviticus 20:13

... along with ...

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT

... seriously, what sort of a sick fuck would make a rape victim marry the rapist ?

Oh, that's right, 'God'. :roll:

Kill non-believers, homosexuals, witches, etc, etc. What a 'loving' religious text huh. :roll:

The bible even approves of slavery. :fraid:

The problem is that "there is some wisdom and good common sense in religious texts", which is 'cherry-picked' out of the text to present the religion in a 'positive light', all the while hiding all of the other sick shit that is in it. The 'positive spin' that is put on the religion and religious texts of christianity is one of THE mind control programs that has been perpetrated throughout history.

Here's a quote in the bible from the supposed 'Prince of Peace' ...


Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it. Matthew 10:34–39

G'day IAAIA :hi:

I agree with everything you stated.and have often wondered why many people claiming to be 'Christian', has not even bothered to even read the Bible. They ain't missing much apparently, that is some sick twisted stuff you pointed out.

I went to church once with a friend after she begged and begged several years ago. On the way, a Sade song came on the radio and I said 'Oh, I love this song!' She turned it off and put on some Christian prayer music or something. Told me that she wasn't allowed to listen to romantic music because of temptations. :yeahno:

You are right, they do cherry pick what to read. The Pastor picks a passage or two as if a rabbit out of a top hat and just runs with it, applying the verse and making a whole sermon out of it and mixing it with modern everyday situation that we all can prolly relate to. Most everyone just 'amened' and 'praise the lord' after every sentence the preacher spoke. It felt weird and I glanced around at everyone because they seemed to be tranced out. It was scary to me but quite refreshing I guess for churchy people.
Last Edit: 07 Aug 2012 20:04 by Mountain.
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Re: are you an atheist? 07 Aug 2012 20:09 #44

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I believe in a god called lumpapoa and that Eskimos are the chosen people.
LOL :thumbup:
naivety attracts evil and evil attracts naivety
Last Edit: 07 Aug 2012 23:52 by humanspirit.
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Re: are you an atheist? 07 Aug 2012 21:32 #45

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G'day Mountain.
Mountain wrote:
G'day IAAIA :hi:

I agree with everything you stated.and have often wondered why many people claiming to be 'Christian', has not even bothered to even read the Bible. They ain't missing much apparently, that is some sick twisted stuff you pointed out.

Who knows ? :dunno:

Laziness, a lack of critical thinking, being told that they haven't had seminary training (read: indoctrination) and wouldn't understand it. The reasons could be one of many, or a combination of all of them.

And yeah, it is "sick twisted stuff", of which there is a lot more. I've pointed out such passages to christians, they look totally embarrassed and don't know how to respond. What could they really say in response ?

Mountain wrote:
I went to church once with a friend after she begged and begged several years ago. On the way, a Sade song came on the radio and I said 'Oh, I love this song!' She turned it off and put on some Christian prayer music or something. Told me that she wasn't allowed to listen to romantic music because of temptations. :yeahno:

Ahh, the old recruiting scenario. I've got one of those. ;) :D

In '97, when I got back to Aus from the UK, there was a letter in my parents mail box the following day for a school reunion being held in a months time. I went along and one of the women I had a chat with thought that I was all 'spiritual' and wanted me to come along to this spiritual church she attended. I'm open to all things, so I went along. Well, it was an interesting evening to say the least.

Firstly, the pastor / priest gave a ranting sermon and there were kids that went and sat on the steps and bawled their eyes out during it. I sat there in amazement that no one thought this was odd and that no one went and comforted the kids.

Then they got onto the 'healing' thing. They wanted me to get up on stage and have the pastor / priest put his hand over my forehead (third eye area). They were quite adamant about any 'new' people getting up on stage. So much so that I had one guy come up and ask me if I wanted to get up. I said no. Then the call kept getting repeated and I had a couple more guys come and stand right behind where I was sitting, with one of them again asking me if I wanted to get up. I told him I'd already answered the question, so they went ahead with the 'healing' without me. :D

Anyway, that whole temptation thing your friend mentioned is funny. I know quite a few guys that reckon that if you want to get laid, go to church, it's a guarantee. ;)

Mountain wrote:
You are right, they do cherry pick what to read. The Pastor picks a passage or two as if a rabbit out of a top hat and just runs with it, applying the verse and making a whole sermon out of it and mixing it with modern everyday situation that we all can prolly relate to. Most everyone just 'amened' and 'praise the lord' after every sentence the preacher spoke. It felt weird and I glanced around at everyone because they seemed to be tranced out. It was scary to me but quite refreshing I guess for churchy people.

Funny you mention the 'Amen' thing ...

Revelation 3:14 (Apparently 'Jesus' speaking)

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Amoun

Also known as Amon, Ammon, Amun and Amen. Egyptian god known as "King of the Gods" and "Lord of Heaven," Nome-god of Thebes (Uast, near present-day Qus), consort of Hathor (or of Mut), and father of Khonsu. The Romans identified him with Jupiter.

The name Amoun means "hidden." Amoun was the vassal of Mentu until he displaced him as the principle god of Upper Egypt, later becoming identified with the sun god under the name Amon-Ra.

Amoun is usually depicted as a human male clad in an apron and breastplate, wearing a crown with two ostrich plumes, holding a phoenix wand in his left hand and an Ankh in his right hand. He is also occasionally depicted as the potter with the wheel, fashioning the primal egg of generation; or, like Krishna, as a black lingham. His sacred animals were the ram and the goose. The Hebrew exclamation Amen, "verily," probably derives from the Egyptian custom of taking oaths in the name of Amoun. In Isaiah (lxv, 16) the "God of Truth" is in Hebrew Elohi-Amen.

www.hermetic.com/sabazius/amoun.htm

... which is like the god Sin ...

Sin (Akkadian: Su'en, Sîn) or Nanna (Sumerian: DŠEŠ.KI, DNANNA) was the god of the moon in Mesopotamian mythology.

...

He is commonly designated as En-zu, which means "lord of wisdom". During the period (c.2600-2400 BCE) that Ur exercised a large measure of supremacy over the Euphrates valley, Sin was naturally regarded as the head of the pantheon. It is to this period that we must trace such designations of Sin as "father of the gods", "chief of the gods", "creator of all things", and the like.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_%28mythology%29

... and both show a prior history to the biblical text.

Coincidentally, Ur was the city that Abraham (in the OT) was called out of by 'God'. So the whole ideology around sin probably comes from not wanting people to worship the bearded sky deity Sin. :roll:
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Re: are you an atheist? 07 Aug 2012 22:49 #46

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i used to be an atheist but i am now a pantheist and neurotheologist.

here's an excerpt from my writings:

"I declared myself an atheist because I was pissed off at God for all the little things around age 10. It was my bowling score. The thing that finally did it in was my 5-pin bowling score. I was bowling, like, 200, sometimes 300... Then we have this tournament and I'm bowling like a 60. And I would be up there holding the ball analyzing all my tension trying to achieve some sort of bowler's zen state and I would think I'm honestly not that nervous this is supposed to be fun I'm just so pissed off at God, not so much myself, for making this happen in front of all these people. Right then I would throw the ball and it would go straight into the gutter. It's not like I cared that much about bowling, it's just... It's just the little things. So I was an atheist. I would still fantasize about the afterlife but I would eventually talk myself down to no you're dead you're just dead in the dirt! It can't be! Dead in the dirt! Yet I would pray to God whenever I was feeling particularly anxious over something... Eventually I had long elaborate fantasies about talking to the ghosts of my dead grandparents in the afterlife, and at the end I would ask them to relay certain requests and thank yous to God since we weren't on speaking terms. Then I started to have long elaborate fantasies about my dead cat... Then I asked him to give the message to God. I honestly favoured my dead cat. Got bored of grandma and grandpa. No offense, it's just... It's just... With the death of a human I can hardly give a shit, especially an old human, but I just really really wanted my cute little kitty back he's probably so scared. So there I was, a 12-year-old atheist practicing ancestor worship of his dead cat. Then by age 13 I decided I may want to become an agnostic. A few years later I even decided to stop praying to my dead kitty... I figured just in case he's there and he misses my good nights. I decided that I guess maybe outside of my own head I can declare something as crazy as I may believe in God. I stayed agnostic until I had a few experiences with psilocybin and LSD and gradually came into the light. Eventually I got into studying Buddhism, Taoism, Shamanism, Hinduism, Gnostic Christianity... Like a typical druggie. I decided to declare myself a Pantheist and Neurotheologist who believes in reincarnation and there I will stay. I believe we always reincarnate as humans and that a tree doesn't have a brain so you most certainly can not reincarnate as a tree. As for why one can not reincarnate into a bird... I have my reasons, I will get into them in a future article. So I believe in God. Not only do I believe in God but I am steadfast psychedelic preacher man. Ahead of you is the insanity that naturally follows the declaration of I am steadfast psychedelic preacher man..."
They say the world isn't perfect. I have one question: "Why?"
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Re: are you an atheist? 08 Aug 2012 00:04 #47

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Fascinating thread! Here's my tuppence worth...I am a follower of Christ - or at least, I try to be! :emb: However, whilst it's great to belong to a good church (of whatever denomination), I feel it's important to cut through all the stuff that's been said about Jesus and concentrate on what actually came out of His mouth, Some of the Gnostic Gospels, such as Thomas, are brilliant for this. I'm no theological expert, though, and I'm still learning. As regards the Old Testament, I believe that Jesus superseded it and that we're now under the New Covenant as laid out in the Gospels. The OT is fascinating stuff, but I don't believe we're under Mosaic Law any more - therefore I do not believe that we are commanded to stone homosexuals, for example. Jesus' message was one of Love.

Mandy
All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well. - Mother Julian of Norwich
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Re: are you an atheist? 08 Aug 2012 00:30 #48

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Is god Satan?



This guy is brilliant ! Funny and informative and he knows his stuff.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that there wasn't a historical Jesus, this maybe true OR the real Jesus wasn't even in the ME.

The mind and belief is a powerful thing, given enough energy a group of people can create 'things'.

A native American Medicine Man said that when the Pilgrims came to America there was no concept of good and evil however it was created and now accepted as being so.
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Re: are you an atheist? 08 Aug 2012 03:05 #49

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andyh wrote:
Black Cloud wrote:
Atheism is just another religion like Science is as Well :notworthy:

Bit of an epic fail given that atheism does not fit the definition for a religion.

You may aswell say black is white.
Where are the rules for atheism? Wheres the book for it? Wheres the church? Wheres the tax free status?

The only definition for atheism I know is no belief in a God or Gods and all the dogma that comes with it.

It doesn't stipulate that you then have to agree on specifics or worship some 'atheist' priests or whatever the feck!?

Buddhism probably shares a lot of views in common with a fair few atheists I bet.

What you really meant to say is that 'some' atheists might have hardcore anti-beliefs in respect to ALL religion and/or values?

Personally I'm sick of abrahamic bullshit, but I admire much of buddhism.
Some people would say that makes me agnostic but I'm just as happy to call myself atheist.

I also believe very strongly in the scientific method, which you also allude to but if you're honest the ones you are talking about do NOT adhere to the scientific method.
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Last Edit: 08 Aug 2012 04:33 by Black Cloud.
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Re: are you an atheist? 08 Aug 2012 03:17 #50

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I'll go with agnostic.

Just another way of saying, i dont know shit. :hahano:

Though i lean towards pantheism...heck if there was a creator/creators (gods/aliens/other intelligent life messing with us) the universe is still bigger probably, so yeah, pantheist. :P :chuckle:
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Re: are you an atheist? 08 Aug 2012 03:38 #51

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thoreau wrote:
I am of the belief that the people that appear in religious texts are in all likelihood real and the events depicted are probably exaggerated and fictionalised accounts of real events - I don't however think that there is a god or gods or that the prophets or jesus were anything other then ordinary people who did some extra ordinary things.

I have similar thoughts, Thoreau. I think a lot of the 'prophets' were really just people who saw the world differently, or charlatans looking for their moment of fame. I do agree that some of the accounts may have been exaggerated. Other portions I think may be more of metaphorical and symbolic references, namely directed at astrology, cosmology, archetypes, and consciousness. The Eastern religions were big on putting that out in the open. Western religions try and reserve that side of it for the 'adept', while persuading the masses to stay away from the 'fruit'. Apologies, but I've eaten a basket of it, and will continue to do so. :chuckle:

As far as my spiritual/religious alignment, I consider myself to be closer to Agnosticism like others here. I don't feel I need someone else to tell me how to be spiritual. I think I'm doing well enough on my own. I do how-ever find the relevant bits and pieces from different religious texts to be interesting from a conscious stance. I have no interest in the tradition and chauvinistic sides of them though, and even less in those who interpret their texts literally. So many read their religious books, but don't actually know what they're reading. That's cocky of me to say, but it's true. Otherwise there wouldn't have been wars waged in the name of religion, or people attempting to stop same sex couples from marrying. They don't have a clue.
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Re: are you an atheist? 08 Aug 2012 05:28 #52

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quietgirl wrote:
Fascinating thread! Here's my tuppence worth...I am a follower of Christ - or at least, I try to be! :emb: However, whilst it's great to belong to a good church (of whatever denomination), I feel it's important to cut through all the stuff that's been said about Jesus and concentrate on what actually came out of His mouth, Some of the Gnostic Gospels, such as Thomas, are brilliant for this. I'm no theological expert, though, and I'm still learning. As regards the Old Testament, I believe that Jesus superseded it and that we're now under the New Covenant as laid out in the Gospels. The OT is fascinating stuff, but I don't believe we're under Mosaic Law any more - therefore I do not believe that we are commanded to stone homosexuals, for example. Jesus' message was one of Love.

Mandy

G'day Quietgirl.

Here's a website that I have posted at over a few years that may help you in learning more ...

Debating Christianity & Religion
debatingchristianity.com/forum/

... it's run by Otseng (a christian) and has quite a few members that have gone through seminary school posting there (both as atheists/agnostics and a few practicing preachers). The 'Christianity and Apologetics' sub-forum is probably the main place to have a read of.

In regards to 'Jesus' and 'Mosaic Law' ...


Matthew 5:17-19

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

... the bible is quite clear as to what 'Jesus' states in relationship to this issue. It mightn't be what is preached though. ;)

I can fully comprehend why anyone would like to believe in the 'positive' message that is commonly portrayed by the christian religion, though when you look a lot closer the 'negative' far outweighs any 'positive' message. Also, when you look into the veracity of the claims made, there is no supporting evidence, especially for all of the 'miracle' claims.

Here's a dissemination of the claims made about the 'resurrection' (as presented in the gospels) by Dan Barker, from chapter 24 of his book, Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist ...


Here are some of the discrepancies among the resurrection accounts:

What time did the women visit the tomb?

* Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
* Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)
* Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
* John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)

Who were the women?

* Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
* Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
* Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)
* John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)

What was their purpose?

* Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)
* Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)
* Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)
* John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)

Was the tomb open when they arrived?

* Matthew: No (28:2)
* Mark: Yes (16:4)
* Luke: Yes (24:2)
* John: Yes (20:1)

Who was at the tomb when they arrived?

* Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
* Mark: One young man (16:5)
* Luke: Two men (24:4)
* John: Two angels (20:12)

Where were these messengers situated?

* Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)
* Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)
* Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)
* John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)

What did the messenger(s) say?

* Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)
* Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)
* Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)
* John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)

Did the women tell what happened?

* Matthew: Yes (28:8)
* Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)
* Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)
* John: Yes (20:18)

When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?

* Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
* Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
* Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
* John: No (20:2)

When did Mary first see Jesus?

* Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)
* Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)
* John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)

Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?

* Matthew: Yes (28:9)
* John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)

After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?

* Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)
* Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)
* Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)
* John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)
* Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)

Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?

* Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)
* Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14)
* Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)
* John: In a room, at evening (20:19)

Did the disciples believe the two men?

* Mark: No (16:13)
* Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two)

What happened at the appearance?

* Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20)
* Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19)
* Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)
* John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)

Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?

* Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday
* Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday
* John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)
* Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)

Where did the ascension take place?

* Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee
* Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)
* Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)
* John: No ascension
* Paul: No ascension
* Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)

ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=stone


Chapter 23
Bible Contradictions

ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=contra

... Chapter 23, as it states, is about bible contradictions.

This isn't me stating this, nor is it Dan Barker. This is what is presented in the bible, all of which is fully referenced / cited with the relevant biblical passages, so it can be easily checked.

One of the major issues though is whether or not there is a 'Jesus of Nazareth', let alone whether he is the 'Son of God' or performed 'miracles'. To put it bluntly, there is no credible evidence for the existence of 'Jesus of Nazareth' ... none whatsoever. All that is given is the gospel narratives, which the authorship is in doubt, and is simply circular reasoning (a logical fallacy). It is akin to claiming that Gandalf is real because the book The Lord of the Rings states that Gandalf is real.

While I recognise that many christians are well meaning individuals and are looking to lead a positive existence, I personally find the christian religion itself to be repugnant in its ideology and it is based upon mythology (which is heavily borrowed from previous mythologies). In this, I hope that you recognise that I do not consider you to be the religion and that you do not take my commentary about the christian religion personally.
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Re: are you an atheist? 08 Aug 2012 06:47 #53

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Boots wrote:
Is god Satan?

<snip doco>

This guy is brilliant ! Funny and informative and he knows his stuff.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that there wasn't a historical Jesus, this maybe true OR the real Jesus wasn't even in the ME.

The mind and belief is a powerful thing, given enough energy a group of people can create 'things'.

A native American Medicine Man said that when the Pilgrims came to America there was no concept of good and evil however it was created and now accepted as being so.

G'day Boots.

Thanks for posting that doco mate, it was interesting. :thumbup:

When I read revelations, I was struck by a particular passage ...


Revelation 22:16 (KJV) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

Revelation 22:16 (NIV) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

2 Peter 1:19 (New International Version) "19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts."

... and later found the one from 2 Peter1:19. It was a stand out to me because one of the names of Lucifer is Morning Star.

Lucifer is a Latin word meaning "light-bearer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), a Roman astrological term for the "Morning Star", the planet Venus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

... and then there are other correlations with ...

The Vatican's Crest is the 'snake-/dragon', as displayed in the Vatican Museum.

The word 'vatican' comes from Latin and is a contraction of two words in the following way:

'Vatis' = 'prophetic' or 'diviner'
'Can' = 'serpent/snake'

These two words combined make:

'the prophetic- or made divine serpent'
The Vatican is a place, so you may say, that 'Vatican' means 'the place of the prophetic and worshiped serpent'.

&
Gregoryxiii Dragon Medal 1582
The above papal medal of Pope Gregory XIII, designed by L Parm, is dated 1582, marking the year of the Gregorian calendar reform. On the reverse of the medal is a winged dragon / serpent encircling a ram's head. As previously mentioned, the dragon is the biblical symbol of Satan (Rev 12:9). The serpent that is chasing or devouring its tail is called Ouroboros, Uroboros, or Oureboros. The ram's head is also a satanic symbol, and is frequently associated with the Egyptian deities, such as the god Amon (Amoun, Ammun, Ammon), the king of all gods, who was also regarded as the sun god, and Khnum, who created mankind on his potter's wheel from the mud of the Nile.

&
Serpent
The Phoenician serpent god, alias Basilisk. The serpent, as well as the image of the sun, is always a phallic symbol in ancient religion. Basilisk is where the Roman Catholic Church got the name-- St. Peter's Basilica. Basilica is the old Greek name for the temple of the phallic god. How appropriate this is in view of the perpetual obsessions of the priests of "Mother Church." It also is well complimented by the obelisk in St. Peter's square which is a world wide phallic symbol complete with the phallic ball on top.

... which correlates with some of the information discussed in the doco you posted.
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Re: are you an atheist? 08 Aug 2012 08:00 #54

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I AM ALL I AM wrote:
When I read revelations, I was struck by a particular passage ...

Revelation 22:16 (KJV) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

Revelation 22:16 (NIV) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

2 Peter 1:19 (New International Version) "19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts."

... and later found the one from 2 Peter1:19. It was a stand out to me because one of the names of Lucifer is Morning Star.

Lucifer is a Latin word meaning "light-bearer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), a Roman astrological term for the "Morning Star", the planet Venus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

:up: Yes i have read about Jesus being Lucifer (which is Venus...astrolatry aka astro-theology)

For those unfamiliar with astrolatry...
Astrotheology is the study of the astronomical origins of religion; how gods, goddesses, and demons are personifications of astronomical phenomena such as lunar elipses, planetary alignments, and apparent interactions of planetary bodies with stars.

Babylonian astronomy from early times associates stars with deities, but the heavens as the residence of an anthropomorphic pantheon, and later of monotheistic God and his retinue of angels, is a later development, gradually replacing the notion of the pantheon residing or convening on the summit of high mountains.

Sayce (1913) argues a parallelism of the "stellar theology" of Babylon and Egypt, both countries absorbing popular star-worship into the official pantheon of their respective state religions by identification of gods with stars or planets.

The 1783 issue of The New Christian's magazine had an essay entitled Astro-theology which argued the "demonstration of sacred truths" from "a survey of heavenly bodies" in the sense of the watchmaker analogy.

Higginson (1855) argues a compatibility of "Jewish Astro-theology" of the Hebrew Bible, which places God and his angelic hosts in the heavens, with a "Scientific Astro-theology" based on observation of the cosmos.

Manly P Hall (1901-1990) taught that each of the three Abrahamic faiths has a planet that governs that religion.

Judaism is Saturn: the symbol of Judaism is a hexagram symbol of Saturn, and the day of worship is on Saturday, day of Saturn.

Christianity is the Sun: the symbol of Christianity is the cross symbol of the Sun, and the day of worship is Sunday, day of the Sun.

Islam is Venus: the symbol of Islam is the star and crescent (the star commonly thought to represent Venus), and the day of worship is on Friday, day of Venus

Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, and the ancient Egyptian religions are examples of faiths claimed to be derived from observations of the bodies on the celestial sphere.

Examples of deities said to be created as astrological allegories include YHWH, Ra, Horus, Osiris, Mithras, Zoroaster, Helios, Apollo, Lugh, Quetzalcoatl, Jesus Christ.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolatry


Others interpret it differently in that Jesus and Lucifer are two different things, brothers even perhaps, representing dualism (good vs bad).

05 05 12  1336238315  JesusvsLucifer


Of course the elite through religion teach us to be 'good' not bad, i suppose giving them a monopoly on being Luciferians. :hahano:

It seems that many of these stories repeat themselves in a similar fashion in other religions going back (comparative mythology)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_mythology

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology


A luciferian i suppose is just someone who does whatever they want, a primordial creature. The elite/rulers perhaps.

Luciferianism is centered around Lucifer, the bringer of light (enlightenment).

Luciferian Principles

*The Luciferian is a superior illuminated being, and stands above idol worshipers.

*The Luciferians is proud of being all that is.

*The Luciferian is free to do as he wishes while accepting the consequences.

*The Luciferian is a person who strives for wealth, and lives in prosperity.

*The Luciferian accepts his carnal primordial nature as it is, and glorifies it.

*The Luciferian is merciful on those who have proven themselves worthy to him.

*The Luciferian is cruel and wrathful to those who have proven themselves worthy.

*The Luciferian imagines and theorizes, but is firmly grounded in reality.

*The Luciferian respects Mind, Body and Spirit.

*The Luciferian does not convert; Luciferianism is only for the elite, unlike Christianity where you may convert every fool that you come across.

*The Luciferian loves the earth and the sun, the stars and nature.

*The Luciferian respects people of abrahamic faiths, but not their ignorance.

*The Luciferian puts reason, the self and common sense squarely above god.

*The Luciferian has no fear, be that of hell fire or thunder bolt.

*The Luciferian whole heartedly accepts science and human ingenuity, as the most holy of principles.

*The Luciferian has but one mortal enemy, ignorance.

*The Luciferian exalts the throne of man.

*The Luciferian is held back by one person only, the self.

*The Luciferian has a sun burning inside of him, thus he may shine brighter than others.

*The Luciferian has a free heart, clean soul and a mind of purity.

*The Luciferian is perfect; perfection is a constant state of improvement.

*The Luciferian accepts spirituality, not as "spiritual pipe dreams" or "nonsensical hocus pocus", but rather as a science waiting to be discovered by the pure of mind.

*The Luciferian is might incarnate, a god in the flesh, the highest expression of life in this world.

*The most beautiful thing in Terra are the men and women who walk upon her.

*The ugliest thing in Terra is stratified religion and dead idols.

*Keep your words of wisdom in the shadows; the light is not for those who are without. Lest you regret it sorely.

Source(s):
Religious studies major

Ex LaVeyan Satanist

Pantheistic Luciferian

Another point to mention is, are lucifer and satan the same thing or not?


The serpent is also associated with duality, as well as death and re-birth, cycle of life etc..a long piece :hahano: about the serpent and religion... (it has a religious spin :hahano: but it still contains relevant information about the serpent in history)

The image of the serpent was tremendously significant in the ancient world. Societies and scriptures of the Near East simultaneously attributed two highly symbolic roles to serpents. One role connected serpents to the heavens by having them represent deity, creative powers, and healing. The other linked them with the underworld and associated them with evil, harm, and destructive influences. We who live in modern times have no difficulty appreciating this double symbol because, in fact, this duality persists in our own day. The symbol of the healing serpent appears on the physician's caduceus, while a person of disreputable actions—especially treachery—is sometimes referred to as "a snake."

A careful reading of Israel's sacred writings reveals that the same duality regarding serpent symbolism that existed among various peoples of the ancient Near East was also an integral part of the religious landscape of Jehovah's covenant people. Texts from both the Bible and Book of Mormon identify and allow us to attach proper name-titles to the two specific beings who are represented by the dual image of the serpent: Christ and Satan. By surveying nonbiblical Mediterranean and Mesopotamian cultural evidence as well as scripture, I hope to do three things: first, demonstrate the dual nature of serpent symbolism; second, examine the proposition that the ancient serpent myths of the Fertile Crescent and Mediterranean-based cultures are echoes of divine truth—namely, that from the beginning the true Messiah was legitimately represented by the image of the serpent, but that the symbol was usurped and perverted by the quintessential false messiah, Satan; and, third, explore whether or not the Book of Mormon fits the biblical and Near Eastern cultural environment regarding the dual nature of serpent symbolism.

Egyptian Evidence

The serpent as a dual, polar symbol emerged in the cradle of civilization during the earliest periods of history. Serpent symbolism among the ancient Egyptians demonstrates the most glaring contrasts between worship on the one hand and abhorrence on the other.

In Egypt the snake was a chthonic animal (a creature representing any one of a number of gods of the earth and underworld) and the embodiment of life-giving powers.[1] Attributing life-giving powers to snakes may have arisen in part from observing snakes shedding their skins, continually exposing a "new body" in the process. Thus, one of the forms of the god Atum, believed to be a primeval creator deity, was the snake or serpent that continued to live season after season. In a fascinating dialogue with Osiris, the Egyptian god of the netherworld and of final judgment,[2] Atum predicts the destruction of the world he created and his own reversion back to the form of a serpent or snake.[3] As Henri Frankfort says, "The primeval snake . . . survives when everything else is destroyed at the end of time."[4] Thus the serpent was strongly and continually associated with creation and eternal existence in the ancient Egyptian ethos. The Egyptians portrayed life itself by the image of the rearing serpent, and a serpent biting its tail was a common Egyptian emblem for "eternity."

Another primeval deity mentioned in the Pyramid Texts is Amun, one of whose two primary representations was that of the snake named Kematef (meaning "he who has completed his time").[5] After the Eleventh Dynasty (the Egyptian Middle Kingdom), Amun appeared as the god of the capital of Thebes and eventually merged with the sun god to be become known as Amun-Re, the supreme state god in the New Kingdom (c. 1550–1090 B.C.). At Karnak it was believed that Amun-Re and his divine consort, the goddess Mut, gave birth to a son named Khonsu. Mut is also symbolized as a snake and is called "Mut the resplendent serpent."[6] Thus the divine triad or family, the preeminent unit of social organization among the gods and humans according to the Egyptian worldview, was linked to the image of the serpent.

The close ties between birth, the goodness of the gods, rebirth, and the image of the serpent infused Egypt during all of her early historical periods down to the end of the New Kingdom. When corn was harvested and grapes pressed into wine, an offering was made to the harvest goddess, Thermuthis, who was depicted as either a snake or a woman with a serpent's head.[7] Geb, the god of the earth and "the father of the gods," is referred to as "the father of snakes" that emerge from the earth.[8] It is also significant, given Egyptian obsession with the quest for eternal life, that the snake "became a symbol of survival after death" (even resurrection) among the ancient Egyptians.[9] In the Egyptian Book of the Dead (sometimes referred to by its more precise title, The Book of Going Forth by Day), chapter 87, we are told that transformation into a serpent upon death gives new life to the deceased person.[10]

Veneration of serpents or snakes in predynastic Egypt and during the Old Kingdom coalesced around the most important serpent-goddess of Lower Egypt: Wadjet. Wadjet (meaning "green one") was the general Egyptian term for cobra, and in that form she became the symbol of royalty and unification. In fact, the cobra, or uraeus, became a generic Egyptian ideograph for the concept of immortality. Thus the pharaoh was described as "the living years of the uraeus."[11] Wadjet was attached to the royal crown as protectress of the king or pharaoh and in the end became the "eye of Re." As the "green one," the serpent Wadjet embodied the forces of growth and health. (Significantly, green was the color that symbolized resurrection in ancient Egypt.)[12]

In opposition to all that was good in ancient Egypt, the most preeminent of all the demons, evil gods, or evil powers was Apophis, who was represented by a snake. Apophis was "the serpent of darkness," the supreme opponent of the great sun god Re.[13] The Egyptian Book of the Dead fairly crawls with other serpent demons as well, sometimes winged or rearing up, occasionally even standing on legs and spitting fire. And yet the serpent demons are not more powerful or overpowering than those serpent deities in charge of the forces of good. For example, counterbalancing Apophis is the snake Mehen ("the coiled one"), who was the helpful attendant of the sun god Re. Mehen assisted Re on his journey through the realm of night so that he would reemerge unharmed morning after morning, day by day.[14] Thus the plans of a supreme spiritual adversary, represented by a serpent, were foiled by the powers of good, also represented by a serpent.

The negative aspects of serpent symbolism would have been particularly keen in the minds of Egyptian royalty as they thought about the afterlife. In fact, the dangers that had to be overcome after death during one's journey through the netherworld in order to gain eternal life were so great that discussion of these matters occupies a significant place in the funerary papyri of ancient Egypt. Even certain Pyramid Texts manifest this preoccupation, one of which indicates that the dead king (pharaoh) gains eternity by winning the "snake game."[15] Though little else is known about this element of the salvific process in ancient Egypt, one wonders if this contest was not symbolic of having to pass some kind of postmortal test or final judgment in which the deceased would be required to demonstrate his knowledge of special information gained through his mortal experiences. Perhaps. However, we can assert that, given such overwhelming evidence from texts and inscriptions, the serpent stood both for supreme goodness as well as ultimate evil among the ancient Egyptians and that serpent imagery was incontrovertibly associated with the afterlife, resurrection, and eternity.

Mesopotamian Evidence

Ancient Mesopotamian culture (indigenous to the area approximately encompassing modern Iraq) displays a dualism associated with serpent symbolism similar to that found in Egypt. The Sumerian god of spring vegetation, Tammuz, was linked to the image of the snake. Both he and his mother bore the title "mother-great-serpent of Heaven," that is, the serpent deity who emanated from the heaven god Anu.[16] The snake was also the sacred symbol of the god Ningizzida, who was called in Sumerian mythology "the companion of Tammuz."[17] He was the guardian at the door of heaven who had the power to bestow fertility, "who protected the living by his magic spells, and could ward off death and heal disease for the benefit of those who worshiped him devoutly."[18] The image of Ningizzida as a horned serpent on the seals of scrolls from ancient Mesopotamia seems to have been a sign of his divine power.[19]

As with the god Ningizzida, the Mesopotamian corn goddess, Nidaba, was shown in representations with serpents (springing from her shoulders).[20] In the Sumerian and Babylonian worldviews the serpent was symbolic of the regenerative and healing properties of certain elements and produce of the earth. Therefore, the Sumerians and Babylonians transformed these aspects of nature into special serpent deities as did other Semitic and Mediterranean cultures.[21]

The image of the serpent deity in ancient Mesopotamia spanned several time periods as well as cultures. The greatest sovereign the Sumerians ever produced, King Gudea of the city-state Lagash, placed a representation of a serpent deity at the entrance of one of his temples around 2050 B.C., presumably to act as a guardian of the sacred edifice where life is renewed. Fourteen hundred years later, King Nebuchadnezzar II, ruler of the Neo-Babylonian empire (605–562 B.C.), dedicated the monumental Ishtar Gate of Babylon to the god Marduk with the following inscription:

(Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, son of) Nabopolassar (King of Babylon am I). The gate of Nana (Ishtar . . . I built) with (blue) enamelled bricks . . . for Marduk my lord. Lusty bulls of bronze and mighty figures of serpents I placed at their thresholds . . . Marduk, exalted lord . . . eternal life . . . give as a gift.[22]

Regarding the joining of the bull and serpent images, Karen Joines has shown that it also was found throughout the ancient Near East:

The cultic association of the bull with the serpent emphasizes the fertility aspect of the serpent. . . . The serpent-bull symbolism is widespread. Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Assyria have influenced the Canaanites at this point, and Palestine again becomes part of the larger Near East in its cultic symbolism.[23]

Not all Mesopotamian serpent images represented something beneficent. The oldest mythologies of ancient Mesopotamia have a familiar ring to them because they often parallel episodes found in the Old Testament and because their themes reflect the primeval struggle between two opposing powers. The story of the fall of man and the first family's expulsion from the garden (Genesis 3) presents details and undertones also found in the Sumerian tale of Enki and Ninhursag, the Adapa story, and the Gilgamesh epic.

In the Gilgamesh epic, Utnapishtim and his wife, who have become like the gods, present some hope by which Gilgamesh may also obtain everlasting life. Beyond the Waters of Death there exists a magic, life-giving plant that renews a person's youth. Gilgamesh gathers it, but an evil snake snatches this plant away, ending the hero's hope of eternal life. That the snake benefits from possession of the plant and lives on is evidenced by the fact that it sloughs off its old skin and enjoys a rejuvenation. Gilgamesh sits down and weeps over his own loss and the fact that he has played into the hands of the malevolent serpent.[24]

Thus the serpent in this epic fills a similar role as the serpent in Genesis, preventing the renewal of life by controlling or manipulating certain special flora to its advantage. Later Persian tradition also tells of a special plant that bestowed immortality. But Ahriman, the evil adversary of the one true "Wise Lord" (Ahura Mazda), created a serpent to destroy the miracle-working plant.[25]

The most troublesome of all serpents in Mesopotamian mythology are described in the Babylonian creation epic (the Enuma Elish)—those primeval "monster serpents" that constitute the forces of chaos in the primeval world of the gods. Described as "sharp toothed, with fang unsparing," possessing bodies filled "with poison for blood," they gather in council, preparing to wage a war in heaven against the great gods.[26] The forces of chaos are headed by none other than Tiamat, who is herself a female serpent (frequently referred to as a dragon). Ultimately, chaos is subdued as Tiamat is killed by Marduk, the champion deity, and her body is cast out of the presence of the gods, half to form the earth's seas and the other half to form the sky.

Phoenician and Greek Evidence

To the west of Mesopotamia, on the Mediterranean coastal plain of northern Syria-Palestine, an important Phoenician deity named Eshmun of Sidon was worshiped. Like the Greek deity Asclepius, Eshmun was the god of medicine whose symbol was a serpent. And, again like the Greek Asclepius, Eshmun of Sidon apparently oversaw the growth and use of medicinal herbs, the cure of poisons, and also potent charms. Since devotees knew about antidotes for poisons and medicinal herbs that come from the ground, it seems only natural that they represented both Eshmun and Asclepius in the form of serpents. In Phoenician inscriptions, Eshmun is called Adonai, "My Lord," parallel to the use of the Hebrew Adonai in referring to Jehovah.

The influence of Eshmun seems to have been felt over a long period of time and a wide geographical region. Scholars believe that coins from the Roman period depicting the figure of a youthful god standing between two serpents reflect the cult of the god Eshmun, "the Healer." Though Asclepius is also represented as a serpent in Greek portrayals, an actual Sidonian coin shows Eshmun leaning on a staff with a serpent entwined about it.[27] Sidonian depictions of Eshmun also parallel ancient Syrian representations of their god of healing, Shadrapa, whose image is that of the serpent. If they do not depict Eshmun, the Roman coins certainly depict Asclepius.

The Greek name of the god of medicine, Asclepius, was taken over by the Romans as Aesculapius, and the staff of Aesculapius with snakes wound around it is still the famous symbol, or caduceus, of the medical profession. It is interesting to note that authorities believe that the Phoenicians, Greeks, and Romans worshiped the god of medicine in the form of a serpent for at least two reasons. First, the snake was "the connecting link between the world of the quick and the dead," between the living and the dead (as seen in other cultures such as Egypt); the serpent could give life or take it, let another creature live or cause it to die by invoking, as it were, a kind of "instant judgment" in deciding to strike or not.[28] This seems true of both venomous and nonvenomous snakes such as constrictors. Second, the snake was the perfect model of regeneration and immortality since it sheds its skin every season.[29]

The precursor of serpent veneration in classical Greece is to be found among the ancient Minoans on the island of Crete. Between 2000 and 1450 B.C. the Minoans promoted an advanced maritime culture that dominated the islands of the Aegean Sea, the mainland of Greece, and the coastal regions of Asia Minor (modern Turkey). The most important Minoan deity was the mother earth goddess of the city-state Knossos, or Cnossus, the capital of Cretan civilization. She is similar to fertility goddesses worshiped elsewhere in ancient Mediterranean and Near Eastern cultures. On Crete she was usually depicted in small statue form as a woman holding a snake in each hand, with a bird perched on top of her head. As in other places and other cultures, the sloughing of the snake's skin probably represented the concept of renewal to the Minoans on Crete.

In the religious thought of the later classical Greeks (who were undoubtedly influenced by their Minoan predecessors), the serpent image sometimes appeared in tandem with the image of a bird (just as it did on Crete and in the art and literature of Mesopotamia).[30] The Agathos Daimon was often depicted as a winged serpent and regarded as a good spirit.[31] Seemingly, this linkage of serpents and birds cuts across a broad spectrum of cultures. Cultic or ritual vessels unearthed from Early Iron Age Canaan bear decorations with the serpent-dove motif.[32] Even the most famous example of the winged serpent motif outside of (but related to) the Near East, namely, the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl ("feathered serpent"), is impressive because that god was revered as the founder of priestly wisdom (almost as if the Aztecs were somehow familiar with Jesus' statement to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves" [Matthew 10:16]). Quetzalcoatl's high priests even bore the title "Prince of Serpents."[33]

Evidence from the Holy Land

Serpent veneration is attested in virtually every region of the Mediterranean basin, but nowhere more explicitly than in the Holy Land. Jars and vessels decorated with snakes give evidence of the existence of serpent cults in early Canaan. A two-handled cylindrical receptacle, dating to the time of Ramses III (1198–1166 B.C.), was uncovered at Beth-shan, a major city lying between the Jezreel and Jordan valleys. According to experts, this cultic object, which was decorated with serpents coiled around the sides from bottom to top, with doves perched on the handles, may have been used in sacred rites associated with agriculture.[34] In fact, more objects displaying serpent imagery have been found among the strata of Beth-shan than at any other site in the Holy Land. Many if not most of these objects date to the Iron Age I period.[35] A large storage jar decorated with a snake in relief has been found at Tel Dan, one of the two national sanctuaries of the northern kingdom of Israel. Dating from about the 10th century B.C., it was uncovered near the "high place" and was probably used as some kind of cultic receptacle.[36]

According to Philip J. King, the snake goddess was worshiped during the Early Iron Age (1225–960 B.C.) at such sites as Gezer, Beth-shan, Beth-shemesh, Shechem, and Hazor. The serpent-dove motif found at Beth-shan, dating from the 12th century B.C., seems to have been commonly associated with Ashtoreth, the female consort of the Canaanite deity El. The serpent or snake was also associated with Anat, the goddess of war venerated at Ugarit, one of the capital cities of the Canaanites and the repository of tablets containing the myths of that people.

At what was once the largest city in the Holy Land during Canaanite times, Hazor,[37] Yigael Yadin found evidence of serpent worship. In the apparent storeroom of a potter's workshop, his team uncovered several complete vessels, including chalices, bowls, lamps, and juglets. But the greatest prize was what Yadin called a "cultic standard." The standard was essentially a bronze plaque with a prong for fastening it to a standard or pole, recalling the brazen serpent erected on a staff by Moses. On the face of the Hazor plaque was the anthropomorphic image of the snake goddess holding a snake in each hand. Just above the goddess was a representation of her emblem, a crescent and a snake, which also appeared on the lower portion of the plaque. Yadin speculates that the cultic standard must have belonged "to the treasures of the sanctuary, and was used probably in the cultic procession, in which the priests carried the standards of various gods."[38]

Though examples could be multiplied, suffice it to say that enough evidence exists to show clearly that veneration of serpents in one form or another was found throughout the ancient Mediterranean region, especially among Israel's closest neighbors. The familiar mythology of the ancient Near East manifests the primeval struggle between the powers of good and evil, both of which are often represented by snakes. As a bringer of salvation and giver of everlasting life, the snake became a divine reptile. As the conveyor of death the snake became the incarnation of evil spirits. Against the backdrop of this duality we turn now to sacred scripture, where we find critical information to help us more fully understand and appreciate the numerous echoes and parallels in cognate literature.

Serpent Imagery in the Old Testament

The serpent first appears in the scriptures in the story of the fall of Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:1). In the Hebrew language the creature is called a nahash, a viper, from which derives the noun for copper or brass (nehosheth), also used as an adjective denoting the "brass" serpent that Moses erected on a pole in the wilderness for the protection and healing of the Israelites (see Numbers 21:4–9).

On the one hand, the nahash in Genesis is clearly symbolic of evil, even the evil one (Satan), precisely because the serpent was in league with the devil, promoting the cause of the adversary and acting as his agent to bring about the fall (see Moses 4:5–31). On the other hand, when used by Moses under God's inspiration, the image of the nahash or, more precisely, the nahash nehosheth (brass serpent), became the agent of life and salvation for God's covenant people.

Numbers 21 is particularly intriguing because it demonstrates the dual nature of serpent symbolism in Israelite culture in a striking fashion.

And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. (Numbers 21:5–9)

The agent of both harm and healing, death and life, is, in this instance, the serpent. The people sin and fiery serpents bite them. Moses constructs a brass image of the harmful creatures and the people are spared. But it is really Jehovah who is the cause working behind the image, the actual instigator of both death and life. The Israelites may already have been familiar with images of fiery serpents from their exposure to Egyptian mythology while sojourning in Egypt. But the serpent symbol is now seen in its true light—a valid and important representation of God's ultimate power over life and death. God is the reality behind the symbol.

In the early part of the story of Israel's deliverance from Pharaoh, king of Egypt, Jehovah showed Moses in a dramatic way that He was the real God represented by the image of the serpent or snake, an image that Pharaoh himself wore on the front of his official headdress as a symbol of his own deity and sovereignty. (It will be remembered that every pharaoh was regarded as a living god on earth by his subjects.) When Moses threw down his staff, as commanded, it became a serpent. God told the Lawgiver that just such a demonstration should be conducted in front of Pharaoh and his court so that all would know that Jehovah was the one true God who had commissioned his representative, Moses, to stand before the false gods of the Egyptian people, which pantheon included Pharaoh himself (see Exodus 4:1–5, 8).

When Moses and Aaron went before Pharaoh, they did exactly as the Lord had commanded. Their staff became a snake, which in the Hebrew text is denoted by two different terms, one of which is the very same word used earlier in Genesis to describe Eve's tempter, nahash (see Exodus 7:9, 10, 15). Either through sleight of hand or by demonic power, Pharaoh's magicians were able to duplicate the action and turn their staffs into serpents as well. In what might be viewed as a quintessential showdown between God and the devil, the serpent of Jehovah swallowed up the serpents of Pharaoh as the God of Israel demonstrated his omnipotent supremacy (see Exodus 7:10–13). This scene dramatically illustrates the duality of serpent imagery in the scriptures. The one true God was represented by a serpent. The false gods of Egypt were also represented by serpents.

That the image of the serpent continued to exist as a powerful symbol of God long after the Mosaic era ended seems apparent from 2 Kings 18:4:

He [King Hezekiah] removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Equally apparent from this verse, however, is the idea that the serpent at some point ceased to be for the Israelites a pure symbol of the one true God to be worshiped (as Moses intended) and became an idol, the object of worship, instead of a reminder of the reality behind the symbol (Jehovah).We are told that Hezekiah, one of the righteous kings of Judah, removed the high places and idols of the people and broke into pieces the brass serpent. Just when idolatrous significance was attached to the brass serpent is not known, but perhaps it occurred during the reign of Hezekiah's father, King Ahaz (see 2 Kings 16).

New Testament Evidence

Many centuries after King Hezekiah, the association between deity and the image of the serpent was given its fullest expression by none other than Jesus himself, as recorded by the apostle John. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14–15). Thus, according to Jesus, the serpent was intended to be the supernal symbol of himself and his atonement.

But John the apostle was also aware of the opposite meaning conveyed by the image of the serpent. In language similar to certain passages in the Book of Mormon, he refers to Satan in his Apocalypse as "the serpent," "that old serpent," and "the great dragon" (Revelation 12:9, 14, 15; 20:2). According to John, the serpent fought a war in heaven (see Revelation 12:7), was cast out with a third part of the hosts of heaven (see v. 4), and attempted to destroy a woman who had brought forth a son. But he did not prevail. Selected verses of Revelation 12, arranged in a slightly different order than the King James Version, illustrate our point and tell the story well:

7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

13. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God. . . .

17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I interpret these verses to mean that Satan was cast out of heaven not only to tempt and deceive humankind on the earth, but also to become the prime mover behind apostasy, forcing "the woman" into the wilderness for a time. The woman appears to be the true church or kingdom of God on earth. The man child, who rules "all nations with a rod of iron," is Christ, while the wilderness refuge of the woman (the church) is the great period of apostasy. However, the serpent does not succeed in destroying the church—rather, as John foresaw, the church comes out of the wilderness or is restored to the earth in later times (see Revelation 14:6–7).

Ultimately, says John, the "old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan" (Revelation 20:2) will be bound for 1,000 years, loosed a little season to wreak havoc among the Saints, but finally cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (see Revelation 20:3, 7–10). All of this is done by the power of the righteous one (Jesus Christ), who is also symbolized by the serpent image, as we have noted (see John 3:14–15).

Can there be any doubt that John the apostle was fully aware of the duality of serpent symbolism? In fact, when one considers all of Jesus' words as reported in the four Gospels, it is clear that Jesus himself understood perfectly the duality of the serpent symbol, as did others in New Testament times. Not only did Jesus speak of himself as the fulfillment of Moses' brazen serpent typology, but he also spoke of Satan as a serpent—which was a significant image in intertestamental times. One scholar has written:

When Jesus tells his disciples that they have been given authority to "tread upon serpents [ophis] and scorpions" and that "the spirits are subject" to them (Luke 10:19–20), he may have alluded to Ps 91:13 ("You will tread upon lion and the adder, young lion and the serpent you will trample under foot"). Psalm 91 has nothing to do with Satan; but Jesus' words do (cf. Luke 10:17–18). Would a reference to treading upon serpents have been understood in first-century Palestine as a reference to Satan and demons? Very much so. Consider this eschatological hope expressed in one of the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs: "And Beliar [i.e., Satan] shall be bound by him [i.e., an agent of salvation on whom the Spirit of God shall rest; Isa 11:2]. And he shall grant to his children the authority to trample on wicked spirits" (T. Levi 18:12; cf. T. Sim. 6:6; T. Zeb. 9:8). Since Satan is represented as a serpent (ophis) in Gen 3:1–15 and the righteous will trample serpents under foot, it is not too difficult to see how the language of Psalm 91 could be adopted and applied to Satan and evil spirits as we find it in Luke 10 and the Testament of Levi 18. The targumic tradition also links serpents and scorpions with Satan and evil spirits (and Gen 3:15, which speaks of the woman's seed crushing the serpent's head, is understood in a messianic sense in the targums).[39]

We may even add at this point that the woman's seed would be able to crush the evil serpent's head by the power given to them from the true serpent, the Messiah!

Serpent Symbolism in the Book of Mormon

It is clear that the righteous peoples of the Book of Mormon understood the symbol of the serpent in much the same way that many of their Old Testament forebears did. However, it is monumentally significant that these American Israelites also knew, even from the earliest periods of their own history, that the ultimate meaning behind the symbol of the serpent was the Lord Jesus Christ and his saving and life-giving power. They understood the true intent of the symbol some 600 years before the Messiah himself appeared in mortality to articulate the message of the serpent's being raised up in Moses' day. In the sixth century B.C. Nephi spoke plainly of this symbolism:

And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt, and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations after they had been bitten by poisonous serpents, if they would cast their eyes unto the serpent which he did raise up before them, and also gave him power that he should smite the rock and the water should come forth; yea, behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved. (2 Nephi 25:20)

Later on, another prophet named Nephi (son of Helaman) also made reference to the image of the serpent lifted up in the wilderness by Moses and its clearly intended association with the Son of God, the Messiah, the giver of eternal life. In fact, it seems fair to say that Nephi, son of Helaman, described even more clearly than Nephi, son of Lehi, the messianic implications and significance of the brazen serpent symbol.

But, behold, ye not only deny my words, but ye also deny all the words which have been spoken by our fathers, and also the words which were spoken by this man, Moses, who had such great power given unto him, yea the words which he hath spoken concerning the coming of the Messiah. Yea, did he not bear record that the Son of God should come? And as he lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness, even so shall he be lifted up who should come. And as many as should look upon that serpent should live, even so as many as should look upon the Son of God with faith, having a contrite spirit, might live, even unto that life which is eternal. (Helaman 8:13–15)

Such evidence causes one to wonder how widely known and diffused the serpent symbol became and why its ultimate and most important meaning became lost. If the Israelites themselves promulgated some kind of an association between serpent imagery and salvific power, down to the time of Hezekiah, and the Nephites also possessed a knowledge of such an association (especially in its true and correct interpretation), might not the pagan neighbors of Israel also have had a knowledge, albeit in corrupt form, of serpent- savior symbolism? And, in fact, might not the serpent plaque found at Hazor by Professor Yadin, interpreted by him and others as being created expressly for use on a raised pole or standard, represent a diffusion of such serpent-savior symbolism?

Like the Old Testament, the Book of Mormon also demonstrates the dual nature of serpent symbolism. It is in perfect harmony with the ancient Near Eastern cultural milieu. In this sacred record we find the serpent used as both the symbol of ultimate good and the symbol of ultimate evil. And because Joseph Smith called the Book of Mormon the most correct of any book on the earth, we can be assured that the image of the serpent was an appropriate potent and valuable symbol of both good and bad in the lives of prophets and disciples of Jesus Christ living in the Western Hemisphere. Just as God was represented by the image of the serpent to Lehi's descendants, so too Satan was portrayed by Lehi and his descendants as a serpent, as can be seen in certain passages referring to the fall of Adam and Eve. Here he is called, as he was in the book of Revelation, the "old serpent," the one who "did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall" (Mosiah 16:3). In an important autobiographical statement we read:

And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. (2 Nephi 2:17–18)

It is worth noting that both Lehi and Nephi have a direct connection to John the Revelator in that they all saw the same visions and became familiar with the same images—perhaps even some of the same phrases associated with serpent representations of Satan.[40] As Nephi says when recording the words of his heavenly tutor:

And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.

But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them. . . .

And I bear record that I saw the things which my father saw, and the angel of the Lord did make them known unto me. (1 Nephi 14: 24–25, 29)

Meanings and Messages across Cultures

The scriptures give us a fairly inclusive perspective on serpent dualism. Clearly, Satan is well represented as a serpent. But so is the Savior, as the Book of Mormon unequivocally proclaims. Coming together in the person of Jesus Christ is a wide array of the positive powers and attributes of all those ancient Near Eastern deities ever associated with the image of the serpent.

Like the Egyptian Atum, Christ is the primeval creator deity (see Moses 1:32–33). Reminiscent of Amun, the supreme god of Egypt in the New Kingdom, Christ literally provides renewal and rebirth (see Romans 6:3–9; Mosiah 3:19; 5:7; Alma 5:14; D&C 5:16; and Moses 6:59–60). The goodness and bounties of life are not given to us by Thermuthis, the Egyptian goddess of harvest, but rather by Christ (see D&C 59:16–20). And resurrection and eternal life are not bestowed by Osiris but result from the atoning death of Jesus (see Romans 6:3–9; 1 Corinthians 15:21–22). Just as royalty and unity were symbolized by the serpent Wadjet of Egypt, royalty is truly to be ascribed to Christ the King, and unity is found in him (see D&C 38:27). Though in ancient Mesopotamia Ningizzida was regarded as the guardian at the door of heaven, the Book of Mormon teaches in unequivocal terms that Jesus is the true gatekeeper who employs no servant or substitute there.

O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name. (2 Nephi 9:41)

Furthermore, do not the serpents Eshmun of Sidon, Asclepius of Greece, and Aesculapius of Rome share some fundamental similarities with the real healer, Jesus (see Alma 7:11–12)? It seems that such beneficent deities of early civilizations, which were represented by the image of the serpent centuries or even millennia before Jesus appeared on the scene, bear uncanny resemblances to him. These resemblances suggest a connection that, though unrecoverable solely by an appeal to ancient sources, ties the positive attributes of these serpent-images to those of the Savior.

A review of the evidence leads me to the conclusion that the intensely positive and powerful serpent symbols and images from ancient non-Israelite, non-Christian cultures of the Fertile Crescent and Mediterranean basin represent echoes of divine truth once known in the very beginning of this earth's temporal existence but corrupted early on. That is to say, the foreknown and long-awaited Messiah of the world, the great Jehovah of the Old Testament and primordial creator of the heavens and the earth, was originally and legitimately represented by the image or symbol of the serpent—evidently before the ancient and renowned civilizations of the Fertile Crescent and Mediterranean region developed. It is apparent that this symbol came to be applied to other important deities of various pantheons as the serpent symbol was handed down from culture to culture. Effectively, the true knowledge of God and the representative symbols that were attributed to him were lost through apostasy and cultural diffusion.

But what of the serpent image as a symbol for Christ? If the serpent was a legitimate emblem of the coming Messiah, how and why did Lucifer usurp the serpent symbol after Adam and Eve were placed on this earth? In a roundabout way, the Prophet Joseph Smith may have provided a clue regarding the origins of serpent imagery as a symbol for Christ and why Satan appropriated it for his own.When speaking of the dove as an identifying symbol of the Holy Ghost, Joseph Smith said, "The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove."[41]

A possible implication of this statement is that other signs, symbols, and tokens may have been instituted in premortality to represent deity, but the one that Satan absolutely could not imitate was the dove. However, as the preeminent counterfeiter and deceiver, Satan could and does usurp other signs and symbols properly applied to God in order to try to legitimize his false identity as a god. This is why Satan chose to appropriate and utilize the sign of the serpent as the best means of deceiving Eve as well as her posterity.

The scriptures help us to see that Satan imitates and perverts every divine truth; every godly concept, principle, or practice; and every good and positive symbol, image, sign, and token in order to deceive and manipulate the souls of men. This even includes appearing as an angel of light (see Alma 30:53; D&C 128:20). By usurping and manipulating the symbol of the serpent, Satan tried to validate his false identity and his lies, insisting that following his ways would elevate our first parents to the status of the very God represented by the true image of the serpent (see Moses 4:10–11). Satan came to Eve clothed, as it were, in the garb of the Messiah, using the signs, symbols, and even the language of the Messiah, promising things that only the Messiah could rightfully promise. "(And [Satan] spake by the mouth of the serpent.) . . . And the serpent said unto the woman: Ye shall not surely die; . . . ye shall be as the gods" (Moses 4:7, 10–11). In reality only the one who worked out an infinite atonement could legitimately make these kinds of promises. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why Satan is justly called a liar from the beginning (see Moses 4:4; D&C 93:25).

Because Satan appeared as a serpent in the Garden of Eden, thereby adopting a symbol of the Messiah, it seems plausible that, like the sign of the dove, the sign of the serpent had been instituted in premortality as a symbol of deity, particularly Jehovah (see Exodus 4:1–5; 7:10–13; and Numbers 21:5–9), and later on as a symbol of Jehovah-come-to-earth, or in other words Jesus Christ (see John 3:14–15), the true God of life and salvation. It also seems plausible that the signs of both the dove and the serpent (as specific symbols of true deity) were made known to God's children in mortality sometime in the distant past. It is interesting to note that at that archaeological site in the Holy Land where most of the cultic objects bearing serpent imagery have been found (Bethshan), the serpents are usually displayed in association with doves. In addition to the smaller religious objects that display the serpent-dove motif, each of the two Iron Age I temples at Beth-shan display the serpent-dove decoration. A fragment of the relief from the southern temple depicts deities standing and holding doves, while serpents wind upward with their heads almost touching the feet of the deities. In the northern temple, doves sit near the feet of deities as serpents glide toward the doves.[42]

Conclusion

It seems clear that enough evidence exists from a wide range of sources to establish the dual nature of serpent symbols in the ancient Near East—representing both gods and demons, good and bad, life and death. Furthermore, the Bible exhibits this same dualism. But even more important for our present purposes, we may say that the Book of Mormon also presents this same theological understanding of serpent symbolism and is a record perfectly at home in the cultural milieu of the ancient Near East.

Evidence from all sources (scriptural, cultural, historical, and prophetic) leads us to believe that the serpent symbol appeared first in the Garden of Eden when Satan adopted the form of a snake, which was intended to point to the true Messiah. Over time, its true meaning became corrupted not only as it became established through natural observation—the snake shedding its skin and so on—but also as the symbol passed through many cultures down through the ages. The result, of course, was the appearance of the dual nature of serpent symbolism in the various civilizations of the Near East and elsewhere.

It was the late Spencer Palmer of Brigham Young University who observed that a theory of corruption and cultural diffusion is the most compelling explanation for the many resemblances to the pure gospel found in various religious traditions around the world.[43] This certainly seems to be the case regarding the powerful and pervasive symbol of the serpent in the ancient world. Enough glimpses and echoes of the divinely intended meaning of the serpent symbol exist to enable us to make significant connections to Christ. Of this, the Book of Mormon is a premier witness and source.

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=10&num=2&id=254
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Last Edit: 08 Aug 2012 08:33 by novum.
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Re: are you an atheist? 08 Aug 2012 23:05 #55

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What I don't like is: SANCTIMONIOUS PURITANICAL ATHEISTS.

I don't know any fanatically religious people (I know that would get on my nerves as well) but I know some believers,some atheists,and most (like me) are neither. Now,while the religious ones occasionaly quote something from the bible,or thank god for their family or whatever,it's unobtrusive. Even quite sweet.

But at "work",FUCK - the atheists there - it's not enough to be an atheist,no - they have to MAKE A POINT of it ALL THE TIME. And they only way they can do this is by constantly comparing in relation to something religious,or making an example out of something biblical as to why atheisism is so much better. If they had a genuine grasp on atheisim they wouldn't need the bible to "prove" it to themselves/others all the time. They are obsessed. And ramming it down my throat! Piss off!!
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Re: are you an atheist? 09 Aug 2012 01:29 #56

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G'day Myshoono.

Fund-a-mentals aren't simply restricted to religions. ;)
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
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Re: are you an atheist? 09 Aug 2012 07:39 #57

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To Quote ricky gervais...
People who believe in God sometimes have moments of doubt about their faith. Have you had any moments of doubt about your atheism?
Atheism isn’t a belief system. I have a belief system but it’s not “based on” atheism, it’s just not based on the existence of a god. I make none of my moral, social, or artistic decisions based on any god or superstitions. Saying atheism is a belief system is like saying not going skiing is a hobby. I’ve never been skiing. It’s my biggest hobby. I literally do it all the time. But to answer your question I am constantly faced with theories of God, and angels, and hell. It’s everywhere. But unless there is an ounce of credibility to it, I reject. I have to. You can’t lie to yourself. If you do you’ve only fooled a deluded person and where’s the victory in that?
Why don’t you believe in God? I get that question all the time. I always try to give a sensitive, reasoned answer. This is usually awkward, time consuming and pointless. People who believe in God don’t need proof of his existence, and they certainly don’t want evidence to the contrary. They are happy with their belief. They even say things like “it’s true to me” and “it’s faith.” I still give my logical answer because I feel that not being honest would be patronizing and impolite. It is ironic therefore that “I don’t believe in God because there is absolutely no scientific evidence for his existence and from what I’ve heard the very definition is a logical impossibility in this known universe,” comes across as both patronizing and impolite.

There are and have been 5700 gods in known human history, I dont believe in 5700, YOU dont believe in 5699. Sorry but I cant debate why your god on this pale blue dot, is the right one. The only reason you worship "that" god, is because you were born where you were born, for 99% of you, its nothing more or less. Religion is used to control and isolate.

We are dumb fucking apes shitting in our water and killing each other off. We have no real working knowledge of the universe, and what we do know, tells us there is 0% chance we are the only life in the universe (yet we ignore that as it conflicts the words of 2000 year old books we worship). We are just into technology 150 years and all live in an unpopulated corner of the milky way. Of course we are going to be praying to outdated gods, and bending words in old books to fit our agenda. We are ridiculously territorial beings that FEAR death to the extent we will make up an afterlife to curb that fear.

Look how long religion fought to censor crazy beliefs like the earth is a sphere. Fear and guilt, with a promise of heavenly afterlife. I suggest you all just live your lives to the fullest, and dont be a cunt. :beer:


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Re: are you an atheist? 09 Aug 2012 08:03 #58

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badfish wrote:
... There are and have been 5700 gods in known human history, I dont believe in 5700, YOU dont believe in 5699. ...

G'day Badfish.

This part of your post reminded me of a quote ...


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Stephen Roberts
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Re: are you an atheist? 09 Aug 2012 08:09 #59

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What about being a Satanist ...
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Re: are you an atheist? 09 Aug 2012 08:37 #60

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G'day Black Cloud.

Satanism is part of the Abrahamic cult mythology mate. So there's actually four Abrahamic religions; judaism; christianity; islam; satanism.

You could call them the 'fatal four', or even the 'four horsemen'. :D
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
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Last Edit: 09 Aug 2012 08:38 by I AM ALL I AM.
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