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TOPIC: Marxism

Re: Marxism 27 Jul 2012 23:40 #21

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Well everyone undoubtadly has some interesting views on this subject, and it has definitely opened up some lines of debate for the near future, namely the key issues standing out to me in this thread are, and which I would very much like to work in common with you all in coming to agreement about:

what can we agree is a good definition of Capitalism?
I personally think the dictionary one is good enough?
an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations[free associations of private individuals, like the USA], especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.
perhaps it would be more relevant -if there is great disagreement that modern civilization is fundamentally capitalist and based on capitalist reason, as defined above- if we discuss the world system, what would be a correct description of the way of things, weighing and assessing the various terms we are all aware of?

where do Communism and Anarchism as Left Wing theories of resistance have core similarities and differences?
For this I think we should focus on Proudhon and Bakunin, their critiques of Marx and Communist ideals, and the responses from Marx and Engels?
are these differences, reconcilable, un-important, transcendable?

how and for what reasons are/will the masses become mobilized?
I think we could work together to list some forms of popular resistance we are each aware of, their demands, their criticisms of the status quo, there is no end of material on this subject in global current events?

What say you forumites, will you join me in this undertaking or are we willing to progress as atomized icebergs floating in a sea of confusion?

My initial thoughts are I will produce three threads on each question, then if we want to elaborate or go off topic, challenge the consensus we reach, we can continually edit or go into detail on a specific aspect on another thread?

Capitalism
Anarchism <>Communism
Resistance
Will be the names of the threads (if I can use <> symbols in the topic title :hahano: )

Does anyone think this is a good idea and want to elaborate or think this utterly futile and pointless endeavor and I've already wasted too much of your time?

BTW WUB thanks for that video I have read more Foucault than Chomsky, still not enough of either though, such great minds, I have far more respect for Foucault though personally, I have the whole transcript of the entire debate if you haven't read it?

I like the idea of Chomsky of a universality of certain forms of communication thus have derived the assumption from my brief glimpses of his thesis a universality underpinning human communication?
I think that idea closely relates to Marxist theories on Alienation, and how resistance is already manifesting itself universally in resistance to reification, commodification, industry etc.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 27 Jul 2012 23:55 by Guevarista.
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Re: Marxism 27 Jul 2012 23:54 #22

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Gue, I think it's a good idea for the thread for you to try and establish some common understanding about the definitions of things like capitalism in regards to the thread :thumbup:

As far as Anarchy goes though, I aint reading no book about it :killinme: laughable, truly laughable :killinme:
Fuck me ALL the major world religions have the fundamental Anarchic principle at their core, it's something so simple and so bloody obvious. This is why ALL of the socio economic doctrines and Religious hierarchies treat it like the bubonic plague.
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Re: Marxism 27 Jul 2012 23:55 #23

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The description of capitalism there is a bad one for the same reason as the definition of communism.
Steevo spoke about how these words have been twisted to have different meanings from what they were originally in the other thread remember?

Whats happening is that authority has slowly diluted the meanings of both to bring them towards a middle ground.

For example, democracy is defined as voting for your dictator every few years, yet in Switzerland they have a completely different form of democracy don't they? :)

Really what it boils down to is private ownership of a few at one extreme and state ownership with a few in control of it at the other.
In both cases it is an authoritarian methodology.

Then we have the anarcho-capitalist and anarcho-communist at the other extreme.
The anarcho-capitalists favour using any money to buy literaly any product and sod all government and sod all taxation etc.

The anarcho-communists believe in groups of people co-operating for the benefit of the whole with a monetary unit agreed by the whole for labour to be divided equally (such as time banking etc which is why you see anarchism as solely being about small groups perhaps Gue if you have only looked at anarcho-communism?)

Anarcho-syndicalism is really not something political or radical, its more about a bunch of people having an equal private share in a business and re-investing the profits into the business and the group with their own housing,schooling etc. Its really about a method of social change by using the elites own laws against them to sabotage them because they're all self employed who pay little tax and all their wages are tax deductible by the business. Mondragon is probably the best example.

There are similarities in various areas, it'll take time for us to go through all that though and discussing what would motivate people towards change would take even longer and some hard thought.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: Marxism 27 Jul 2012 23:57 #24

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dubmeup wrote:
Gue, I think it's a good idea for the thread for you to try and establish some common understanding about the definitions of things like capitalism in regards to the thread :thumbup:

As far as Anarchy goes though, I aint reading no book about it :killinme: laughable, truly laughable :killinme:
Fuck me ALL the major world religions have the fundamental Anarchic principle at their core, it's something so simple and so bloody obvious. This is why ALL of the socio economic doctrines and Religious hierarchies treat it like the bubonic plague.

No dub me up, I am proposing we as a community move beyond the constant interchange of confirmatory or contradictory soundbites and form some consensus together, not me sitting her saying this is what anarchism is, this is what capitalism is and this is why you should be a socialist.

I want everyone (who is interested) to agree to work together to study these issues, properly, so we need never fall victims to snake oil salesmen, stalinist dictators, counter revolutionary ideologies and so on?

I hope I can count on your participation?
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 00:07 #25

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andyh wrote:
The description of capitalism there is a bad one for the same reason as the definition of communism.
Steevo spoke about how these words have been twisted to have different meanings from what they were originally in the other thread remember?

Whats happening is that authority has slowly diluted the meanings of both to bring them towards a middle ground.

For example, democracy is defined as voting for your dictator every few years, yet in Switzerland they have a completely different form of democracy don't they? :)

Really what it boils down to is private ownership of a few at one extreme and state ownership with a few in control of it at the other.
In both cases it is an authoritarian methodology.

Then we have the anarcho-capitalist and anarcho-communist at the other extreme.
The anarcho-capitalists favour using any money to buy literaly any product and sod all government and sod all taxation etc.

The anarcho-communists believe in groups of people co-operating for the benefit of the whole with a monetary unit agreed by the whole for labour to be divided equally (such as time banking etc which is why you see anarchism as solely being about small groups perhaps Gue if you have only looked at anarcho-communism?)

Anarcho-syndicalism is really not something political or radical, its more about a bunch of people having an equal private share in a business and re-investing the profits into the business and the group with their own housing,schooling etc. Its really about a method of social change by using the elites own laws against them to sabotage them because they're all self employed who pay little tax and all their wages are tax deductible by the business. Mondragon is probably the best example.

There are similarities in various areas, it'll take time for us to go through all that though and discussing what would motivate people towards change would take even longer and some hard thought.
A hearty response, so, I trust you agree to participate and specifically in your area of expertise?

Though I don't dislike your post, or the free flow of ideas, perhaps we could formulate a framework in which to properly express the ideas, in a specific thread about them, so we can come to an understanding of these things collectively, learn together, and avoid every thread turning into a disagreement about fundamental aspects of resistance, unity, human existence, the current state of things etc etc..as has happened already?

edit: i do like that you go into the "authoritarian" nature of things, it parallels to Willhelm Reich and Carl Jung's research on the psyche, certainly another aspect of life I think we should do the justice of enshrining in it's own thread in the hope of exploring the questions as a group of diverse individuals with common aims?
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 28 Jul 2012 00:12 by Guevarista.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 00:16 #26

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Guevarista wrote:
BTW WUB thanks for that video I have read more Foucault than Chomsky, still not enough of either though, such great minds, I have far more respect for Foucault though personally, I have the whole transcript of the entire debate if you haven't read it?
I have read it, but thanks. I do know my Chomsky quite well. Foucault I am obviously aware of, but don't know anywhere near as well.
I like the idea of Chomsky of a universality of certain forms of communication thus have derived the assumption from my brief glimpses of his thesis a universality underpinning human communication?
Yes, that's correct. Chomsky, essentially, purports that all human society develops language, that this language can be shown to have common characteristics, so as these societies developed independently, yet developed languages that share these characteristics, and as no other animal develops language (at least not in the same way that human language has developed) then it follows that language must be part of human-beings' intrinsic biological nature. This is referred to as nativism. Another group of theorists completely disputes this, though.

I will try to contribute to the threads you've proposed when I get a chance.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 00:33 #27

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dubmeup wrote:
Gue, I think it's a good idea for the thread for you to try and establish some common understanding about the definitions of things like capitalism in regards to the thread :thumbup:

As far as Anarchy goes though, I aint reading no book about it :killinme: laughable, truly laughable :killinme:
Fuck me ALL the major world religions have the fundamental Anarchic principle at their core, it's something so simple and so bloody obvious. This is why ALL of the socio economic doctrines and Religious hierarchies treat it like the bubonic plague.
Religion is obviously another subject, that plays a huge part in each of the three main points I propose.

Forgot to mention I;m also taking into account the WUB analysis of Marxism, that i respect, ie;that only a minority is interested in it, there are maybe more core fundamental issues we could address.

I think Capitalism, what is the Modern Social Structure, what are it's defining characteristics? could be a really good thread if we start by all agreeing on valid sources and then have an open exchange of opinions on important things to research, it's conception, development, important defining events or periods, flaws, abilities to coexist with other systems, the environment etc.

I mean we could just all come up with a bibliography on a subject, that would be a basic form of what I suggest, but who among us wouldn't miss the constant humm of their pc, who among us wants to read Das Kapital all volumes? :umm: not me!

Eventually I suppose each participant and reader would have contributed to a timeline ending with our ability to accurately interpret current events and come up with real world tangible methods of resistance?
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 01:02 #28

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andyh wrote:

Anarcho-syndicalism is really not something political or radical, its more about a bunch of people having an equal private share in a business and re-investing the profits into the business and the group with their own housing,schooling etc. Its really about a method of social change by using the elites own laws against them to sabotage them because they're all self employed who pay little tax and all their wages are tax deductible by the business. Mondragon is probably the best example.

.

I'd kind of take issue with that. Anarcho-syndicalism evolved within the context of revolutionary anarchism.
Anarcho-syndicalists pursue the same tactics in their fight against that political power which finds its expression in the state. They recognise that the modern state is just the consequence of capitalist economic monopoly and the class divisions which this has set up in society, and merely serves the purpose of maintaining this status by every oppressive instrument of political power. But, while they are convinced that along with the system of exploitation its political protective device, the state, will also disappear, to give place to the administration of public affairs on the basis of free agreement, they do not at all overlook that the efforts of the worker within the existing political order must always be directed toward defending all achieved political and social rights against every attack of reaction, constantly widening the scope of these rights wherever the oportunity for this presents itself

Rudolf Rocker Anarcho-syndicalism theory and practice p.74

Anarcho syndicalism has always been revolutionary at its core and grew from and was aligned with the revolutionary anarchism we all know and love (apart from some business about hospitals). As with Spain with the CNT/FAI. Rocker is basically universally recognised as the theoretical daddy. He was asked to write the particular text I've just quoted from by Emma Goldman. Soulmate of Alexandar Berkman of what is communist anarchism? fame. It grew out of the same crowd that followed on from people like Bakunin and Kropotkin. SolFed - as the UK anarcho-syndicalist organisation (the only one I know of) see themselves strictly in class struggle terms (and have strong links with the anarchist communist Anarchist Federation).
Solidarity Federation is the British section of the anarcho-syndicalist International Workers' Association (IWA)

www.solfed.org.uk/?q=introduction-to-solfed

The Solidarity Federation is a revolutionary union initiative: a working class organisation which seeks the abolition of capitalism and the state. Capitalism because it exploits, oppresses and kills working people and wrecks the environment for profit worldwide. The state because it can only maintain hierarchy and privilege for the classes who control it and their servants; it cannot be used to fight the oppression and exploitation that are the consequences of hierarchy and the source of privilege. In their place we want a society based on workers' self-management, solidarity, mutual aid and libertarian communism.

That society can only be achieved by working class organisations based on the same principles - revolutionary unions. These are not Trades Unions only concerned with “bread and butter” issues like pay and conditions. Revolutionary unions are means for working people to organise and fight all the issues - both in the workplace and outside - which arise from our oppression. We recognise that not all oppression is economic, but can be based on gender, race, sexuality, or anything our rulers find useful. Therefore, revolutionary unions fully support and encourage organisation in all spheres of life that consciously parallel those of the society we wish to create; that is, organisation based on mutual aid, voluntary cooperation, direct democracy, and opposed to domination and exploitation in all forms. We are committed to building a new society within the shell of the old in both our workplaces and the wider community. Unless we organise in this way, politicians - some claiming to be revolutionary - will be able to exploit us for their own ends.

The Solidarity Federation consists of Locals which support the formation of future revolutionary unions and are centres for working class struggle on a local level. Our activities are based on Direct Action - action by workers ourselves, not through intermediaries like politicians and union officials; our decisions are made through participation of the membership. We welcome all working people who agree with our Aims and Principles, and who will spread propaganda for social revolution and revolutionary unions. We recognise that the class struggle is worldwide, and are affiliated to the International Workers' Association, whose Principles of Revolutionary Unionism we have adopted.

www.solfed.org.uk/?q=the-aims-of-the-solidarity-federation

I don't know very much about Mondragon, but I kinda thought they were more of a co-operative.
Last Edit: 28 Jul 2012 01:04 by dogsmilk.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 01:18 #29

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I understand what marxism is, somtimes it is seen as 'wrong' but it's not a bad idea
Last Edit: 28 Jul 2012 01:22 by dawnbreak.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 01:25 #30

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From my perspective, Mondragon is a Basque nationalist collective, which comes back to my main criticism of anarchism compared to socialism, it has the potential to turn into tribalism, or barbarism, and offers no resistance to the maintenance of class distinctions.

I want to get this book:
The Myth of Mondragon
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 28 Jul 2012 01:37 by Guevarista.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 01:52 #31

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As long as people have control over their government then they can also have control over the means of production. If the people take over control of both then they can stop relying on imported goods and resources. They can create their own economy. Of course if it comes down to something that they can not produce domestically then they need to function within the global economy. Of course in many cases that kind of thing will get sanctions imposed on you and possibly even a war. In theory though you can totally take control of the means of production if you have the support of the majority. The problem is that corporations/therich own the means of production the government and the police and armed forces not to mention the media (which to a point controls the masses and what they want).
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 02:19 #32

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Guevarista wrote:
No dub me up, I am proposing we as a community move beyond the constant interchange of confirmatory or contradictory soundbites and form some consensus together, not me sitting her saying this is what anarchism is, this is what capitalism is and this is why you should be a socialist.

I want everyone (who is interested) to agree to work together to study these issues, properly, so we need never fall victims to snake oil salesmen, stalinist dictators, counter revolutionary ideologies and so on?

I hope I can count on your participation?

Yes Gue, I got that from your post before :thumbup: Its a sound idea by me and I'd love to participate.

(just don't expect me to read up on Anarchy ;) )
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 02:24 #33

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I propose that for the purpose of this thread we define anarchy as:
Doing what the heck you want but taking responsibility for your actions and their consequences :)
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 02:46 #34

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wake_up_bomb wrote:

I'm not having a go at you, or dismissing your ideas, let's just say that you have more faith in human nature and the state of the nation than I. I fully accept that there has to be radical change if we are ever to see anything even approaching social justice. My question would always be...how is this going to happen when the overwhelming majority of the population have no idea that there is bordering on no social justice, and believe that they live in a free society? And, indeed, are virtually manufactured to believe this from birth; at the very least one can say without doubt that it is strongly emphasised from an early age through education.

Ditto that.

It's a good thread though Gue­varista... and good ideas for more. I could learn much.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 03:09 #35

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psketti wrote:
wake_up_bomb wrote:

I'm not having a go at you, or dismissing your ideas, let's just say that you have more faith in human nature and the state of the nation than I. I fully accept that there has to be radical change if we are ever to see anything even approaching social justice. My question would always be...how is this going to happen when the overwhelming majority of the population have no idea that there is bordering on no social justice, and believe that they live in a free society? And, indeed, are virtually manufactured to believe this from birth; at the very least one can say without doubt that it is strongly emphasised from an early age through education.

Ditto that.

It's a good thread though Gue­varista... and good ideas for more. I could learn much.
Well I hope you will contribute too, I think if we collectively agree on valuable source materials from which to draw our conclusions, particular fundamentals, and worthy examples, thus avoid the tendency to propagandize our subjective viewpoints, about how to define these important issues, let alone tackle them, or formulate a coherent response, and opposition, or determine if the people here even desire one?

The mass availability of information, ideologies, theories seems to lead to persistent disagreements, disunity or our complicity in the reform and strenghtening of Capitalism/maintenance of the status quo.

This illustrates my motivation for doing this, on the disagreement between the Bakuninist and Marxist theories of Revolution:
For some, the intensity of the conflict has been puzzling, given that the two authors seem to be struggling for identical goals. Convinced that capitalism is predicated on the exploitation of workers by capitalists, they were equally dedicated to fighting for a socialist society where economic classes would be abolished and all individuals would have the opportunity to develop all of their creative capacities. Hence, both envisioned socialism as eliminating the division of labor, especially between mental and manual work, and between men and women. In other words, the work process was to be transformed so that all workers would take an active role in the organization, design and implementation of it. Moreover, both argued that the oppressed must liberate themselves – one should not expect any benevolent impulses from members of the ruling, capitalist class; and to insure success, the revolution must assume an international scope. Finally, they agreed that the State was an instrument of class oppression, not some neutral organ that equitably represented everyone’s interests, and in the final analysis must be abolished. The 1871 Paris Commune offered, in their opinion, a model to be emulated.
www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakun...io/robertson-ann.htm

THat is from a Marxist Perspective but I hope in the thread style I propose we can agree first on whether using material in this manner is acceptable and if so how, we can perhaps readdress these questions, concentrate on them a little perhaps as they are undoubtedly relevant today?
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 28 Jul 2012 03:17 by Guevarista.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 03:16 #36

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dubmeup wrote:
I propose that for the purpose of this thread we define anarchy as:
Doing what the heck you want but taking responsibility for your actions and their consequences :)
Well I am definitely interested in hearing about what Anarchist praxis entails, there was a time it entailed Ravachol's bombs, i;m almost certain you're not referring to that, so I sense there is a bourgeois element, or a capitalistic survival element to what you call Anarchism.
Maybe terms like bourgeois are propagandist and shouldn't be used actually?

I am referring to how one determines "what one wants" as an anarchist member I guess of the "Middle classes"?

That is what I want to know really what's the substance behind the slogan "without government"?
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 28 Jul 2012 03:28 by Guevarista.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 03:51 #37

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Removing government is a big move that many people can get behind on one level because they say to themselves that government is poorly run and fucks shit up. Of course if you just remove it or limit it`s power greatly then you have new problems or worse problems. Anarchism to me is about removing the government and replacing it with community. Running your community with those in your community. Educating your community and providing for your community. People will always say things along the lines of "who will stop people murdering each other" or who will pick up the trash. these are valid questions and the answers can vary from one person to the next but the simple response would be. Who does that now? The trash will be handled by the community. That could mean anything depending on what that group decides. As for police do they prevent much murder now? Any Anarchist society must operate on building community and developing a common respect for each other. It would be a huge leap to get to there from here but it would be the ultimate goal I think. I hope this has not strayed off topic. I don`t have any real formal studies of Marxism or any ism just my thoughts really.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 03:57 #38

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i-baster wrote:
Removing government is a big move that many people can get behind on one level because they say to themselves that government is poorly run and fucks shit up. Of course if you just remove it or limit it`s power greatly then you have new problems or worse problems. Anarchism to me is about removing the government and replacing it with community. Running your community with those in your community. Educating your community and providing for your community. People will always say things along the lines of "who will stop people murdering each other" or who will pick up the trash. these are valid questions and the answers can vary from one person to the next but the simple response would be. Who does that now? The trash will be handled by the community. That could mean anything depending on what that group decides. As for police do they prevent much murder now? Any Anarchist society must operate on building community and developing a common respect for each other. It would be a huge leap to get to there from here but it would be the ultimate goal I think. I hope this has not strayed off topic. I don`t have any real formal studies of Marxism or any ism just my thoughts really.

Makes sense to me.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 07:51 #39

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i-baster wrote:
Removing government is a big move that many people can get behind on one level because they say to themselves that government is poorly run and fucks shit up. Of course if you just remove it or limit it`s power greatly then you have new problems or worse problems. Anarchism to me is about removing the government and replacing it with community.
You're touching upon an issue that Marx and Engels notice with Proudhon, mentioned here by Lenin in State and Revolution:
www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/
Just open each chapter and run an f3 search on Proudhon or Anarchists.

Essentially it's idealism, that anarchy can smash the state and then prevent the reformation of the state apparatus by it's previous owners, benefactors without the power of a centralized force:
"If the political struggle of the working class assumes revolutionary form," wrote Marx, ridiculing the anarchists for their repudiation of politics, "and if the workers set up their revolutionary dictatorship in place of the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, they commit the terrible crime of violating principles, for in order to satisfy their wretched, vulgar everyday needs and to crush the resistance of the bourgeoisie, they give the state a revolutionary and transient form, instead of laying down their arms and abolishing the state." (Neue Zeit Vol.XXXII, 1, 1913-14, p.40)
Ch 4 s/h "Controversy with the Anarchists"

Lenin quotes Marx then Engels extensively on their explanation of this "revolutionary and transient form of the state" and the end objective and how it shares this with Anarchism, interestingly in response to this excerpt from a book by a Social Democrat:
In spite of all the other points of difference between Marx and the 'petty-bourgeois' Proudhon [Bernstein places the word "petty-bourgeois" in inverted commas, to make it sound ironical] on these points, their lines of reasoning run as close as could be." Of course, Bernstein continues, the importance of the municipalities is growing, but "it seems doubtful to me whether the first job of democracy would be such a dissolution [Auflosung] of the modern states and such a complete transformation [Umwandlung] of their organization as is visualized by Marx and Proudhon (the formation of a National Assembly from delegates of the provincial of district assemblies, which, in their turn, would consist of delegates from the communes), so that consequently the previous mode of national representation would disappear." (Bernstein, Premises, German edition, 1899, pp.134 and 136)
ch 3 s/h Organisation of National Unity
[Lenin's notes]
Most characteristically, it is this important correction that has been distorted by the opportunists, and its meaning probably is not known to nine-tenths, if not ninety-nine-hundredths, of the readers of the Communist Manifesto. We shall deal with this distortion more fully farther on, in a chapter devoted specially to distortions. Here it will be sufficient to note that the current, vulgar “interpretation” of Marx's famous statement just quoted is that Marx here allegedly emphasizes the idea of slow development in contradistinction to the seizure of power, and so on.

As a matter of fact, the exact opposite is the case. Marx's idea is that the working class must break up, smash the "ready-made state machinery", and not confine itself merely to laying hold of it.

On April 12, 1871, i.e., just at the time of the Commune, Marx wrote to Kugelmann:

"If you look up the last chapter of my Eighteenth Brumaire, you will find that I declare that the next attempt of the French Revolution will be no longer, as before, to transfer the bureaucratic-military machine from one hand to another, but to smash it [Marx's italics--the original is zerbrechen], and this is the precondition for every real people's revolution on the Continent. And this is what our heroic Party comrades in Paris are attempting." (Neue Zeit, Vol.XX, 1, 1901-02, p. 709.)
Ch3

the whole thing is worth reading, I like reading Lenin's analysis of international events at the time, he's very good on international Imperialism during the early 1900's.

But yeah I think we can address these details more in the near future, I wanted to post this as it's highly important to Marxist Theory:
A lively new polemic about the concepts ‘one divides into two’ and ‘two fuse into one’ is unfolding on the philosophical front in this country. This debate is a struggle between those who are for and those who are against the materialist dialectic, a struggle between two conceptions of the world: the proletarian conception and the bourgeois conception. Those who maintain that ‘one divides into two’ is the fundamental law of things are on the side of the materialist dialectic; those who maintain that the fundamental law of things is that ‘two fuse into one’ are against the materialist dialectic. The two sides have drawn a clear line of demarcation between them, and their arguments are diametrically opposed. This polemic is a reflection, on the ideological level, of the acute and complex class struggle taking place in China and in the world.” —Red Flag (Beijing), 21 September 1964
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 28 Jul 2012 08:21 by Guevarista.
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Re: Marxism 28 Jul 2012 10:21 #40

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Gue, I'd like to raise a point of order.

You stated this quite legitimate premise:
"I think if we col­lec­tively agree on valu­able source mate­ri­als from which to draw our con­clu­sions, par­tic­u­lar fun­da­men­tals, and wor­thy exam­ples, thus avoid the ten­dency to pro­pa­gan­dize our sub­jec­tive view­points, about how to define these impor­tant issues"

In the very next post you employed what I'd say was thinly veiled propaganda:
"Well I am def­i­nitely inter­ested in hear­ing about what Anar­chist praxis entails, there was a time it entailed Ravachol’s bombs, i;m almost cer­tain you’re not refer­ring to that, so I sense there is a bour­geois ele­ment, or a cap­i­tal­is­tic sur­vival ele­ment to what you call Anar­chism."
Albeit that you picked yourself up on it straight away.

But then in your very next post, the thinly veiled propaganda is back:
"Essen­tially it’s ide­al­ism, that anar­chy can smash the state and then pre­vent the ref­or­ma­tion of the state appa­ra­tus by it’s pre­vi­ous own­ers"
"wrote Marx, ridi­cul­ing the anar­chists for their repu­di­a­tion of pol­i­tics"

This imho is not the way to go about a thread such as this.
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