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TOPIC: Fascism in Uk

Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 15:30 #1

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Tommy is such a dumbass :killinme:
List of modern day Fascist groups.

British Movement
November 9th Society
International Third Position
British National Front
Flag Group
Combat 18
League of Saint George
The Wolf's Hook White Brotherhood
White Nationalist Party
Nationalist Alliance
England First Party
UK Freedom Party

Haven't looked into their backers, supporters, though you would expect Conservative bourgeoise, British aristocrats to back them in a similar manner to "The Right Club", Cliveden Set, Nordic League etc were supported/funded by aristocrats in the past.
Modern right-wing groups have "parallels" with 1930s-style fascism, a Cabinet minister has warned following violence at an anti-Islamic protest outside a mosque.

Communities Secretary John Denham made the comments as part of a drive to prevent white working class people being "exploited" by the extremists.

He singled out protests organised by the English Defence League, some of which have turned violent in recent months.

"If you look at the types of demonstrations they've organised... it looks pretty clear that it's a tactic designed to provoke and to get a response and hopefully create violence," Mr Denham told the Guardian.

He pointed to historical "parallels" with the so-called Battle of Cable Street in October 1936.

Then, Sir Oswald Mosley, leader of the British Union of Fascists, tried to march his supporters through a Jewish area of the East End of London, leading to violent clashes.

"You could go back to the 1930s if you wanted to - Cable Street and all of those types of things," Mr Denham said.
skynews.com

The parallels are striking, why assume they would stop at ideology and methodology and not permeate the very foundations of these modern far right groups including the EDL and BNP?
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 02 Sep 2012 15:55 by Guevarista.
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 15:32 #2

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Gonzo and Jimmy used to use "Wolf's Hook" symbolism in their avatars.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 16:09 #3

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Guevarista wrote:
Gonzo and Jimmy used to use "Wolf's Hook" symbolism in their avatars.

Most British facist and racist have to work online as most people won't tolerate them, there are way to many British born non whites now to turn the clock back unless you had some kind of nazi Germany situation again but I don't think the yoof would accept such thank fuck.
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 16:30 #4

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As far as I can see, in the manner described by Mussolini, Britain IS a fascist state.
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 16:43 #5

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I disagree with that dub we just have a liberal conservative state serving the interests of the Bourgeois/ruling class, they are quite similar.
Mussolini on Fascism:

Benito Mussolini (1883-1945) over the course of his lifetime went from Socialism - he was editor of Avanti, a socialist newspaper - to the leadership of a new political movement called "fascism" [after "fasces", the symbol of bound sticks used a totem of power in ancient Rome].

Mussolini came to power after the "March on Rome" in 1922, and was appointed Prime Minister by King Victor Emmanuel.

In 1932 Mussolini wrote (with the help of Giovanni Gentile) and entry for the Italian Encyclopedia on the definition of fascism.

Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....

...The Fascist accepts life and loves it, knowing nothing of and despising suicide: he rather conceives of life as duty and struggle and conquest, but above all for others -- those who are at hand and those who are far distant, contemporaries, and those who will come after...

...Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production.... Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if the economic conception of history be denied, according to which theory men are no more than puppets, carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied - the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society....

After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage....

...Fascism denies, in democracy, the absur[d] conventional untruth of political equality dressed out in the garb of collective irresponsibility, and the myth of "happiness" and indefinite progress....

...given that the nineteenth century was the century of Socialism, of Liberalism, and of Democracy, it does not necessarily follow that the twentieth century must also be a century of Socialism, Liberalism and Democracy: political doctrines pass, but humanity remains, and it may rather be expected that this will be a century of authority...a century of Fascism. For if the nineteenth century was a century of individualism it may be expected that this will be the century of collectivism and hence the century of the State....

The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the "ethic" State....

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....

...For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist; and renunciation is a sign of decay and of death. Fascism is the doctrine best adapted to represent the tendencies and the aspirations of a people, like the people of Italy, who are rising again after many centuries of abasement and foreign servitude. But empire demands discipline, the coordination of all forces and a deeply felt sense of duty and sacrifice: this fact explains many aspects of the practical working of the regime, the character of many forces in the State, and the necessarily severe measures which must be taken against those who would oppose this spontaneous and inevitable movement of Italy in the twentieth century, and would oppose it by recalling the outworn ideology of the nineteenth century - repudiated wheresoever there has been the courage to undertake great experiments of social and political transformation; for never before has the nation stood more in need of authority, of direction and order. If every age has its own characteristic doctrine, there are a thousand signs which point to Fascism as the characteristic doctrine of our time. For if a doctrine must be a living thing, this is proved by the fact that Fascism has created a living faith; and that this faith is very powerful in the minds of men is demonstrated by those who have suffered and died for it.
www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.asp

There is so much information in that article, definitely parallels Dub, definite parallels but imo we need to hold the current state to what it itself claims to be, ie democratic, representative, liberal, green etc not necessarily what it could be compared to. :baller:
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 02 Sep 2012 16:47 by Guevarista.
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 17:01 #6

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False Class Consciousness.
This is bigger than just English nationalism, the conspiracy and new age movement are also manifestations imo.
False consciousness is the Marxist thesis that material and institutional processes in capitalist society are misleading to the proletariat, and to other classes. These processes betray the true relations of forces between those classes, and the real state of affairs regarding the development of pre-socialist society (relative to the secular development of human society in general).

In Marxist theory, false consciousness is essentially a result of ideological control which the proletariat either do not know they are under or which they disregard with a view to their own POUM (probability/possibility of upward mobility).[1] POUM or something like it is required in economics with its presumption of rational agency; otherwise wage laborers would be the conscious supporters of social relations antithetical to their own interests, violating that presumption.[2]

The concept flows from the theory of commodity fetishism — that people experience social relationships as value relations between things, e.g., between the cash in their wage packet and the shirts they want. The cash and the shirt appear to conduct social relations independently of the humans involved, determining who gets what by their inherent values. This leaves the person who earned the cash and the people who made the shirt ignorant of and alienated from their social relationship with each other. So the individual "resolves" the experiences of alienation and oppression through a false conception based on a "natural law" argument that there is a fundamental need to compete with others for commodities.

In Marxist terms, not only is there no such objective need separate from the formulation of the general problem of production and distribution for a given society, moreover, Marx said each against all competition is antithetical to the very concept of society, and therefore sets up a contradiction or historical dynamic which over time is resolved in favor of the class with the greatest ability to act in its own rational self interest. Ruling elites, traditional or otherwise, suffer from false consciousness to the extent that they see the social orders they command as predetermined or inevitable.

Engels

Although Marx frequently denounced ideology in general, there is no evidence that he ever actually used the phrase "false consciousness." It appears to have been used — at least in print — only by Friedrich Engels.[3]

Engels wrote[4]:
“ Ideology is a process accomplished by the so-called thinker. Consciously, it is true, but with a false consciousness. The real motive forces impelling him remain unknown to him; otherwise it simply would not be an ideological process. Hence he imagines false or apparent motives. ...

It is above all this appearance of an independent history of state constitutions, of systems of law, of ideological conceptions in every separate domain, which dazzles most people. If Luther and Calvin “overcome” the official Catholic religion, or Hegel “overcomes” Fichte and Kant, or if the constitutional Montesquieu is indirectly “overcome” by Rousseau with his “Social Contract,” each of these events remains within the sphere of theology, philosophy or political science, represents a stage in the history of these particular spheres of thought and never passes outside the sphere of thought. And since the bourgeois illusion of the eternity and the finality of capitalist production has been added as well, even the victory of the physiocrats and Adam Smith over the mercantilists is accounted as a sheer victory of thought; not as the reflection in thought of changed economic facts but as the finally achieved correct understanding of actual conditions subsisting always and everywhere ... ”

Here Engels expresses semantic baggage associated with the term Ideology, i.e. that it implies a lack of objectivity, which the term had at the time of its introduction from German (due in no small part to a reaction to Hegelianism). This has somewhat substantially been lost over the nearly two centuries since then as Ideology has come to be equated with World View or Philosophy. False consciousness is theoretically linked with the concepts of the dominant ideology and cultural hegemony, and to a lesser extent with cognitive dissonance. The idea of false consciousness has also been used by Marxist feminists and radical feminists in regard to women's studies.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness
Georg Lukács' History and Class Consciousness (1923)

Class consciousness, as described by Georg Lukács's famous History and Class Consciousness (1923), is opposed to any psychological conception of consciousness, which forms the basis of individual or mass psychology (see Freud or, before him, Gustave Le Bon). According to Lukács, each social class has a determined class consciousness which it can achieve. In effect, as opposed to the liberal conception of consciousness as the basis of individual freedom and of the social contract, Marxist class consciousness is not an origin, but an achievement (i.e. it must be "earned" or won). Hence, it is never assured: the proletariat's class consciousness is the result of a permanent struggle to understand the "concrete totality" of the historical process.[citation needed]

According to Lukács, the proletariat was the first class in history that may achieve true class consciousness, because of its specific position highlighted in the Communist Manifesto as the "living negation" of capitalism. All others classes, including the bourgeoisie, are limited to a "false consciousness" which impedes them from understanding the totality of history: instead of understanding each specific moment as a portion of a supposedly deterministic historical process, they universalize it and believe it is everlasting. Hence, capitalism is not thought as a specific phase of history, but is naturalized and thought of as an eternal solidified part of history. Says Lukács, this "false consciousness", which forms ideology itself, is not a simple error as in classical philosophy, but an illusion which can't be dispelled.[citation needed]

Marx described it in his theory of commodity fetishism, which Lukács completed with his concept of reification: alienation is what follows the worker's estrangement to the world following the new life acquired by the product of his work. The dominant bourgeois ideology thus leads the individual to see the achievement of his labour take a life of its own. Furthermore, specialization is also seen as a characteristic of the ideology of modern rationalism, which creates specific and independent domains (art, politics, science, etc.). Only a global perspective can point out how all these different domains interact, argues Lukács. He also points out how Kant brought to its limit the classical opposition between the abstract form and the concrete, historical content, which is abstractly conceived as irrational and contingent. Thus, with Kant's rational system, history becomes totally contingent and is thus ignored. Only with Hegel's dialectic can a mediation be found between the abstract form and the abstract notion of a concrete content.[5]

Even if the bourgeois loses his individual point of view in an attempt to grasp the reality of the totality of society and of the historical process, he is condemned to a form of false consciousness. As an individual, he will always see the collective result of individual actions as a form of "objective law" to which he must submit himself (liberalism has gone so far as seeing an invisible hand in this collective results, making capitalism the best of all possible worlds). By contrast, the proletariat would be, according to Lukács, the first class in history with the possibility to achieve a true form of class consciousness, granting it knowledge of the totality of the historical process.[citation needed]

The proletariat takes the place of Hegel's Weltgeist ("World Spirit"), which achieves history through Volkgeist ("the spirit of the people"): the idealist conception of an abstract Spirit making history, which ends in the realm of Reason, is replaced by a materialist conception based not on mythical Spirits, but on a concrete "identical subject-object of history": the proletariat. The proletariat is both the "object" of history, created by the capitalist social formation; but it is also the "subject" of history, as it is its labour that shapes the world, and thus, knowledge of itself is also, necessarily, knowledge of the reality and of the totality of the historical process. The proletariat's class consciousness is not immediate; class consciousness musn't be mistaken either with the consciousness of one's future and collective interests, opposed to personal immediate interests.[citation needed]

The possibility of class consciousness is given by the objective process of history, which transforms the proletariat into a commodity, hence objectifying it. Class consciousness is thus not a simple subjective act: "as consciousness here is not the consciousness of an object opposed to itself, but the object's consciousness, the act of being conscious of oneself disrupts the objectivity form of its object" (in "Reification and the Proletariat's Consciousness" §3, III "The proletariat's point of view"). In other words, instead of the bourgeois subject and its corresponding ideological concept of individual free will, the proletariat has been transformed into an object (a commodity) which, when it takes consciousness of itself, transforms the very structure of objectivity, that is of reality.[citation needed]

This specific role of the proletariat is a consequence of its specific position; thus, for the first time, consciousness of itself (class consciousness) is also consciousness of the totality (knowledge of the entire social and historical process). Through dialectical materialism, the proletariat understands that what the individual bourgeois conceived as "laws" akin to the laws of nature, which may be only manipulated, as in Descartes's dream, but not changed, is in fact the result of a social and historical process, which can be controlled. Furthermore, only dialectical materialism links together all specialized domains, which modern rationalism can only think as separate instead of as forming a totality.[citation needed]

Only the proletariat can understand that the so-called "eternal laws of economics" are in fact nothing more than the historical form taken by the social and economical process in a capitalist society. Since these "laws" are the result of the collective actions of individuals, and are thus created by society, Marx and Lukács reasoned that this necessarily meant that they could be changed. Any attempt in transforming the so-called "laws" governing capitalism into universal principles, valid in all times and places, are criticized by Lukács as a form of false consciousness.[citation needed]

As the "expression of the revolutionary process itself", dialectical materialism, which is the only theory with an understanding of the totality of the historical process, is the theory which may help the proletariat in its "struggle for class consciousness". Although Lukács does not contest the Marxist primacy of the economic infrastructure on the ideological superstructure (not to be mistaken with vulgar economic determinism), he considers that there is a place for autonomous struggle for class consciousness.[citation needed]

In order to achieve a unity of theory and praxis, theory must not only tend toward reality in an attempt to change it; reality must also tend towards theory. Otherwise, the historical process leads a life of its own, while theorists make their own little theories, desperately waiting for some kind of possible influence over the historical process. Henceforth, reality itself must tend toward the theory, making it the "expression of the revolutionary process itself". In turn, a theory which has as its goal helping the proletariat achieve class consciousness must first be an "objective theory of class consciousness". However, theory in itself is insufficient, and ultimately relies on the struggle of humankind and of the proletariat for consciousness: the "objective theory of class consciousness is only the theory of its objective possibility".[citation needed]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_consciousness
www.marxists.org/archive/lukacs/works/history/lukacs3.htm
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 02 Sep 2012 17:07 by Guevarista.
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 17:01 #7

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I was referring to Mussolini saying this gue:
"Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power."
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 18:16 #8

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Fascists, they're a bit fik...

499458
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 18:35 #9

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blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilliga...scist-as-vice-chair/

You forgot to mention left wing fascist groups :)



Ken Livingstone's anti-fascist group appoints fascist as vice-chair
By Andrew Gilligan Politics Last updated: February 29th, 2012
114 Comments Comment on this article

One of this blog’s oldest friends, Azad Ali, has a great new post. As the Harry’s Place blog reports, Azad is the new vice-chair of Unite Against Fascism, the ostensibly anti-racist group (in fact more of a meal-ticket for the leadership of the Socialist Workers’ Party.)


Azad is the community affairs co-ordinator of the extremist Islamic Forum of Europe, which controls the East London Mosque and which is dedicated, in its own words, to changing the "very infrastructure of society, its institutions, its culture, its political order and its creed … from ignorance to Islam.” Through “hisbah” (the enforcement of Islamic law) and “jihad,” it aims to create a “global” Islamic dictatorship, the caliphate, and its “primary work” in this "is in Europe, because it is this continent, despite all the furore about its achievements, which has a moral and spiritual vacuum."


The IFE has already made some progress towards its goal, exercising strong influence over Tower Hamlets Council through its close ally, the elected mayor, Lutfur Rahman. Lutfur’s council has been busily engaged in enforcing Islamic law on, for instance, local strip clubs and a gay pub. At the last election Azad and the IFE also helped to deliver extraordinary and unprecedented swings in their East London heartland for their equally close friend, Ken Livingstone (Ken had given the East London Mosque more than £1 million of City Hall money to build the IFE a new headquarters, despite the strenuous objections of his officials.)


Azad has written on his IFE blog of his “love” for Anwar al-Awlaki, the al-Qaeda cleric. He used to attend talks by Al-Qaeda’s main representative in the UK, Abu Qatada. He has described al-Qaeda as a "myth" and said that the Mumbai terrorist attacks were not terrorism. On his IFE blog, he advocated the killing of British troops in Iraq (he sued a newspaper for reporting this, and lost.)

Filmed by an undercover reporter for my Channel 4 Dispatches on the IFE, Azad said: “Democracy, if it means at the expense of not implementing the sharia, of course no-one agrees with that.” His response to this exposure was to threaten our undercover reporter.

It would, I think, be fair to describe Azad Ali as an Islamic fascist.
And Azad’s immediate boss, UAF’s chair, is… Ken Livingstone. In this small world, isn’t it fascinating how the same names keep cropping up?
Tags: east london mosque, extremism, ife, Ken Livingstone, lutfur rahman, Tower Hamlets
Last Edit: 02 Sep 2012 18:39 by nirvana.
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 18:49 #10

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The far right and the far left have their own agenda's.

The far right will only defend whites from racial abuse etc

AND :umm:

The far left will only defend none whites from racial abuse etc.

My background was a member of socialist workers party for a number of years which i became disillusioned with when i was on a anti war march in Derby and hundreds of muslims started chanting death to jews. I challenged this and was verbally attacked by both Muslims and my fellow comrades .
Later on John Rees explained we need to stand side by side with the muslim community because they offer us the best chance at revolution.

Due to this episode i spent time in the EDL and even became a steward on many march's

{ i have now distanced myself from the edl}

The edl are a mixed up bunch while some do have good intentions there are plenty of neo nazi's who have taken over parts and divisions. They are in the edl to ignite a civil war.
Last Edit: 02 Sep 2012 19:48 by nirvana.
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 18:58 #11

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You think the SWP are the far left?

:killinme:
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 19:07 #12

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Thank Bod we he have nirvana to remind us about the far left threat that permeates all walks of life and society in our terrible communist world.

And this gem
nirvana wrote
The far left will only defend none whites from racial abuse etc

reminds me why I am so suspicious of threads designed to make white folks feel persecuted.
thank you St Jude for favours granted
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 19:49 #13

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oioioi wrote:
You think the SWP are the far left?

:killinme:

It made alot of sense for a few years :umm:
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 19:51 #14

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mikey mikey wrote:
Thank Bod we he have nirvana to remind us about the far left threat that permeates all walks of life and society in our terrible communist world.

And this gem
nirvana wrote
The far left will only defend none whites from racial abuse etc

reminds me why I am so suspicious of threads designed to make white folks feel persecuted.


The far left and far right both have their own agenda's .
Last Edit: 02 Sep 2012 19:53 by nirvana.
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 21:05 #15

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nirvana wrote:
The far left and far right both have their own agenda's .

The agenda of the far right right includes bringing up the agenda of the far left as soon as the far right comes under any form of scrutiny. ;)
thank you St Jude for favours granted
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 21:33 #16

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mikey mikey wrote:
nirvana wrote:
The far left and far right both have their own agenda's .

The agenda of the far right right includes bringing up the agenda of the far left as soon as the far right comes under any form of scrutiny. ;)


The far left and far right are two sides of the same coin.
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 21:46 #17

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nirvana wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:
nirvana wrote:
The far left and far right both have their own agenda's .

The agenda of the far right right includes bringing up the agenda of the far left as soon as the far right comes under any form of scrutiny. ;)


The far left and far right are two sides of the same coin.

Anti-capitalists reject the coin.
:D
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 21:52 #18

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nirvana wrote:
The far left and far right are two sides of the same coin.

And that is why the topic is focused on "fascism" and "communism" in the UK. :hahano:

Oh wait...

No it isn't.

Maybe the other side of the same coin is worth its own thread. ;)

Or is it necessary on the same thread to point out the evils of far left wing EVERY time the evils of the right wing is mentioned? :hmm:

Is that what is required for your sense of "balance"? :sokay:
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 21:54 #19

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oioioi wrote:
Anti-capitalists reject the coin.
:D

Have you ever thought that some people might never have accepted that and still just consider anarchists as loonyleftielibrulmarxistpinkosocialistcommies?
thank you St Jude for favours granted
Last Edit: 02 Sep 2012 21:55 by mikey mikey.
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Re: Fascism in Uk 02 Sep 2012 22:12 #20

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oioioi wrote:
nirvana wrote:
mikey mikey wrote:
nirvana wrote:
The far left and far right both have their own agenda's .

The agenda of the far right right includes bringing up the agenda of the far left as soon as the far right comes under any form of scrutiny. ;)


The far left and far right are two sides of the same coin.

Anti-capitalists reject the coin.
:D


Unless its a anti capitalist demo then you can buy anti capitalist whistles,tshirts,scarfs,pens,key rings,cups,posters, :killinme:

Its time for a new focus not the far right far left mumbo jumbo of yesterday :roll:
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