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TOPIC: Why does the EU follow Bakunin's ideals?

Why does the EU follow Bakunin's ideals? 03 Sep 2012 17:39 #1

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In 1867 Prussia and France seemed to be poised for a war about which empire should control Luxemburg and this, through the network of interests and alliances, "threatened to engulf all Europe". A League for Peace and Freedom held its congress in Geneva, sponsored by prominent people from various countries like Giuseppe Garibaldi, Victor Hugo and John Stuart Mill. Bakunin seized the opportunity to address this audience, and published his opinions under the title Federalisme, Socialisme et Anti-Theologisme. This document set out thirteen points on which, according to Bakunin, the Geneva Congress was unanimous.

The first of these proclaimed: "That in order to achieve the triumph of liberty, justice and peace in the international relations of Europe, and to render civil war impossible among the various peoples which make up the European family, only a single course lies open: to constitute the United States of Europe".

His second point argued that this aim implied that states must be replaced by regions, for it observed: "That the formation of these States of Europe can never come about between the States as constituted at present, in view of the monstrous disparity which exists between their various powers."

His fourth point claimed: "That not even if it called itself a republic could any centralised bureaucratic and by the same token militarist States enter seriously and genuinely into an intemational federation. By virtue of its constitution, which will always be an explicit or implicit denial of domestic liberty, it would necessarily imply a declaration of permanent war and a threat to the existence of neighbouring countries".

Consequently his fifth point demanded: "That all the supporters of the League should therefore bend all their energies towards the reconstruction of their various countries in order to replace the old organisation founded throughout upon violence and the principle of authority by a new organisation based solely upon the interests needs and inclinations of the populace, and owning no principle other than that of the free federation of individuals into communes communes into provinces, provinces into nations, and the latter into the United States, first of Europe, then of the whole world.

Excerpted from an article called The Anarchist Sociology of Federalism, by Colin Ward.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Why does the EU follow Bakunin's ideals? 03 Sep 2012 17:56 #2

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Guevarista wrote:
The Anarchist Sociology of Federalism,

One seriously confused puppy, lol :)
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Re: Why does the EU follow Bakunin's ideals? 03 Sep 2012 18:16 #3

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Doesn't his fourth point kind of refute any comparison with the EU?
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Re: Why does the EU follow Bakunin's ideals? 03 Sep 2012 18:48 #4

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Spamfish wrote:
Doesn't his fourth point kind of refute any comparison with the EU?

Maybe but if you think more esoterically is that bureaucracy the active force of the United States of Europe or are the guiding forces more a conglomeration of "secret organizations" that operate behind the scenes regionally to implement the objectives of Bakunin?
We are the enemies of any sort of publicly declared dictatorship, we are social revolutionary anarchists. But, you will ask, if we are anarchists, by what right do we want to influence the people, and what methods will we use? Denouncing all power, with what sort of power, or rather by what sort of force, shall we direct a people's revolution? By a force that is invisible, that no one admits and that is not imposed on anyone, by the collective dictatorship of our organization which will be all the greater the more it remains unseen and undeclared, the more it is deprived of all official rights and significance...[Secret organizations] would finally have the strength of that close solidarity which binds isolated groups in one organic whole...These groups would not seek anything for themselves...and they would be in a position to direct popular movements...This is what I call the collective dictatorship of a secret organization.
Letter to Sergei Nechaev
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 03 Sep 2012 18:48 by Guevarista.
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Re: Why does the EU follow Bakunin's ideals? 03 Sep 2012 18:51 #5

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andyh wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
The Anarchist Sociology of Federalism,

One seriously confused puppy, lol :)
How do you know he's not less confused than you?

Here's the article:
library.nothingness.org/articles/anar/en/display/334
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 03 Sep 2012 18:51 by Guevarista.
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Re: Why does the EU follow Bakunin's ideals? 03 Sep 2012 19:32 #6

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Guevarista wrote:
andyh wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
The Anarchist Sociology of Federalism,

One seriously confused puppy, lol :)
How do you know he's not less confused than you?

Here's the article:
library.nothingness.org/articles/anar/en/display/334

I dunno, might be something about stringing antonyms together. Bullshit artists tend to do it a lot.
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Re: Why does the EU follow Bakunin's ideals? 03 Sep 2012 19:41 #7

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What do you think of the actual words of Bakunin that support to some degree the creation of an EU State?
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Why does the EU follow Bakunin's ideals? 03 Sep 2012 19:53 #8

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Guevarista wrote:
What do you think of the actual words of Bakunin that support to some degree the creation of an EU State?

As an effort to prevent war at the time in question?
I can't say but given that we had 2 world wars that kicked off in Europe you have to wonder if at the time it was sensible thinking.

That said, 'The vision thus became bigger and bigger, but Bakunin was careful to include the acceptance of secession. His eighth point declared that: "Just because a region has formed part of a State, even by voluntary accession, it by no means follows that it incurs any obligation to remain tied to it forever. No obligation in perpetuity is acceptable to human justice ... The right of free union and equally free secession comes first and foremost among all political rights; without it, confederation would be nothing but centralisation in disguise.

Bakunin refers admiringly to the Swiss Confederation "practising federation so successfully today", as he puts it and Proudhon, too, explicitly took as a model the Swiss supremacy of the commune as the unit of social organisation, linked by the canton, with a purely administrative federal council. But both remembered the events of 1848, when the Sonderbund of secessionist cantons were compelled by war to accept the new constitution of the majority. So Proudhon and Bakunin were agreed in condemning the subversion of federalism by the unitary principle. In other words, there must be a right of secession.'

Posting all of it for context helps.

Bakunin was obviously talking about a very different EU than the one in place today. An EU wide model based on Switzerland? Jesus, yes please...I'd take that over anything proffered at the moment.
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Re: Why does the EU follow Bakunin's ideals? 05 Sep 2012 14:11 #9

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I don't disagree with his ideas either tbh, you could say it was peculiar to that time, but I think even today a Union of European regions built upon democratic foundations (which imo is quite obtainable in the current structure) would make more sense than separately competing nation states.

The reason I posted is, there are two readings of the statements on the EU and World Superstate of Bakunin, the one I encounter all across the internet in relation to the writings of Karl Marx is; "Bakunin/Marx is part of some conspiracy to subvert the struggle of the working classes in the interests of *insert power bloc*, evidence of this could be provided by his financial ties to individual backers, religious views, also where his theories were supposedly put into practice, ie Russia or Cambodia for Marx, Europe 1950-2012 for Bakunin, but just the revolutionary idea of human's working together globally seems to put people off these days?

Bakunin even said, in a World United States, maybe it was his ideas that sparked some of the developments contrary to Marxism towards that ideal in the late 19th century?

As a Marxist one would hope this Union would be built upon the developed class consciousness of the Proletariat and their cumulative experience, hence built upon radical modes of exchange, fully democratic principles, our common interest for peace, and basic human requirements.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Why does the EU follow Bakunin's ideals? 05 Sep 2012 14:24 #10

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Guevarista wrote:
I don't disagree with his ideas either tbh, you could say it was peculiar to that time, but I think even today a Union of European regions built upon democratic foundations (which imo is quite obtainable in the current structure) would make more sense than separately competing nation states.

The reason I posted is, there are two readings of the statements on the EU and World Superstate of Bakunin, the one I encounter all across the internet in relation to the writings of Karl Marx is; "Bakunin/Marx is part of some conspiracy to subvert the struggle of the working classes in the interests of *insert power bloc*, evidence of this could be provided by his financial ties to individual backers, religious views, also where his theories were supposedly put into practice, ie Russia or Cambodia for Marx, Europe 1950-2012 for Bakunin, but just the revolutionary idea of human's working together globally seems to put people off these days?

Bakunin even said, in a World United States, maybe it was his ideas that sparked some of the developments contrary to Marxism towards that ideal in the late 19th century?

As a Marxist one would hope this Union would be built upon the developed class consciousness of the Proletariat and their cumulative experience, hence built upon radical modes of exchange, fully democratic principles, our common interest for peace, and basic human requirements.

Bakunin was after an EU wide model of the Swiss cantons. This is ofc quite different from what the EU has become.
They don't want there to be anything democractic about it at all, the Euro MP's are just talking heads with no power at all.
This is more akin to the Politburo and Komissars although the politics need not be 'left wing' at all.

europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/founding-f...ton_churchill_en.pdf

^Surprise. A revered 'right winger' supposedly.
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