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TOPIC: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'?

BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 04 Nov 2012 07:59 #1

  • wake_up_bomb
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Chinayp


Literally an incredible article. Of course, some of the things he's saying about the inevitable rise of China are quite correct. Unfortunately, he's manifestly failed to discuss any of the most important factors and instead focused on some trivial infrastructure and social issues.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20178655
A Point Of View: Is China more legitimate than the West?

China and the United States are about to choose new leaders via very different methods.But is a candidate voted for by millions a more legitimate choice than one annointed by a select few, asks Martin Jacques.

This week will witness an extraordinary juxtaposition of events. On Tuesday the next American president will be elected. Two days later, the 18th congress of the Chinese Communist Party will select the new Chinese president and prime minister.

The contrast could hardly be greater.

Americans in their tens of millions will turn out to vote. In China the process of selection will take place behind closed doors and involve only a relative handful of people.

You are probably thinking, "Ah, America at its best, China at its worst - the absence of democracy. China's Achilles heel is its governance. This will be China's downfall."

I want to argue quite the contrary.

You probably think that the legitimacy and authority of the state, or government, is overwhelmingly a function of democracy, Western-style.

But democracy is only one factor. Nor does democracy in itself guarantee legitimacy. (This section really is total nonsense. The whole point of 'democracy' is not about the "authority of the state", it's about holding the state to account).

Think of Italy. It is always voting, but the enduring problem of Italian governance is that its state lacks legitimacy. Half the population don't really believe in it.

Now let me shock you: the Chinese state enjoys greater legitimacy than any Western state. How come?

In China's case the source of the state's legitimacy lies entirely outside the history or experience of Western societies.

In my first talk I explained that China is not primarily a nation-state but a civilisation-state. For the Chinese, what matters is civilisation. For Westerners it is nation. The most important political value in China is the integrity and unity of the civilisation-state.

Given the sheer size and diversity of the country, this is hugely problematic. Between the 1840s and 1949, China was occupied by the colonial powers, divided and fragmented. The Chinese refer to it as their century of humiliation.

They see the state as the embodiment and guardian of Chinese civilisation. Its most important responsibility - bar none - is maintaining the unity of the country. A government that fails to ensure this will fall.

There have been many examples in history. The legitimacy of the Chinese state lies, above all, in its relationship with Chinese civilisation.

But does the Chinese state, you may well ask, really enjoy legitimacy in the eyes of its people?

Take the findings of Tony Saich at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. In a series of surveys he found that between 80 and 95% of Chinese people were either relatively or extremely satisfied with central government. (Is this a good thing?)

Or take the highly respected Pew Global Attitudes surveys which found in 2010, for example, that 91% of Chinese respondents thought that the government's handling of the economy was good (the UK figure, incidentally was 45%).

Such high levels of satisfaction do not mean that China is conflict-free.

On the contrary, there are countless examples of protest action, such as the wave of strikes in Guangdong province for higher wages in 2010 and 2011, and the 150,000 or more so-called mass incidents that take place every year - generally protests by farmers against what they see as the illegal seizure of their land by local authorities in cahoots with property developers.

But these actions do not imply any fundamental dissatisfaction with central government.

If the Chinese state enjoys such support, then why does it display such signs of paranoia? The controls on the press and the internet, the periodic arrest of dissidents, and the rest of it.

Good point. Actually, all Chinese governments have displayed these same symptoms. Why?

Because the country is huge and governance is extremely difficult. They are always anxious, always fearing the unforeseen. Anticipating sources of instability has long been regarded as a fundamental attribute of good governance. (Absolute fucking bollocks)

Not surprisingly, the Chinese have a quite different attitude towards government to that universal in the West.

True, our attitude depends in part on where we stand on the political spectrum. If you are on the right, you are likely to believe in less government and more market. If you are on the left, you are likely to be more favourably disposed to the state. (More bollocks: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianis...ing_market_anarchism)

But both left and right share certain basic assumptions. The role of the state should be codified in law, there should be clear limits to its powers, and there are many areas in which the state should not be involved. We believe the state is necessary - but only up to a point.

The Chinese idea of the state could hardly be more different.

The Chinese see the state as a member of the family - the head of the family, in fact.

They do not view it from a narrowly utilitarian standpoint, in terms of what it can deliver, let alone as the devil incarnate in the manner of the American Tea Party.

They see the state as an intimate, or, to be more precise, as a member of the family - the head of the family, in fact. The Chinese regard the family as the template for the state. What's more, they perceive the state not as external to themselves but as an extension or representation of themselves.

The fact that the Chinese state enjoys such an exalted position in society lends it enormous authority, a remarkable ubiquity and great competence. (This might be why you get 95% of people not complaining about it. Just an idea)

Take the economy. China's economic rise - an annual growth rate of 10% for more than 30 years - has been masterminded by the Chinese state.

It is the most remarkable economic transformation the world has seen since the modern era began with Britain's industrial revolution in the late 18th Century.

Even though China is still a poor developing country, its state, I would argue, is the most competent in the world.

Take infrastructure - the importance of which is belatedly now being recognised in the West. Here, China has no peers. Its high speed rail network is the world's largest and will soon be greater than the rest of the world's put together.

And the state's ubiquity - a large majority of China's most competitive companies, to this day, are state-owned. Or consider the one-child policy, which still commands great support amongst the population.

The competence of the state is little talked about or really valued in the West, especially in the Anglo-Saxon world. (Is this a bad thing?)

Indeed, since the early 80s, the debate about the state in Britain has largely been conducted in terms either of what bits should be privatised or how it can be made to mimic the market. (More total bollocks)

Now, however, we are in a new ball game. With the Western economies in a profound mess and with China's startling rise, the competence of the state can no longer be ignored. Our model is in crisis. Theirs has been delivering the goods. (You might want to mention some of the prevailing economic reasons for this. Just one word would do. DEBT)

As China's dramatic ascent continues - which it surely will - then China's strengths will become a growing subject of interest in the West. We will realise that our relationship with them can no longer consist of telling them how they should be like us. A little humility is in order.

One of the most dramatic illustrations of this will be the state. We think of it as their greatest weakness but we will come to realise that it is one of their greatest strengths.

Beyond a point it would be quite impossible for a Western state to be like China's. It is the product of a different history and a different relationship between state and society. You could never transplant their state into a Western country, and vice versa. But this does not mean that we cannot learn from the Chinese state, just as they have learnt much from us.

China's rise will have a profound effect on Western debate.

In about six years hence, the Chinese economy will overtake the US economy in size. By 2030 it will be very much larger.

The world is increasingly being shaped by China, and if it has looked west for the last two centuries, in future it will look east.

Welcome, then, to the new Chinese paradigm - one that combines a highly competitive, indeed often ferocious market, with a ubiquitous and competent state.

For us in the West this is an entirely new phenomenon. And it will shape our future.
This is a very important article because it's the nation's greatest propaganda pusher telling us that the Chinese will run the world, that even the phony democracy that we've got used to will end, and that the sniveling peasants will learn to like it.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 04 Nov 2012 08:00 by wake_up_bomb.
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 04 Nov 2012 08:53 #2

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That's a very frightening prospect. I hope it never comes into being. I don't really understand how China can be described as a democracy.
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 04 Nov 2012 09:17 #3

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Gilly wrote:
That's a very frightening prospect. I hope it never comes into being. I don't really understand how China can be described as a democracy.

It can't be described as a democracy, because it isn't one.

And Martin Jacques (the author of that article) is a communist....he was editor of the Communist Party of Great Britain's journal, Marxism Today.

Now he writes for the BBC... :roll:
truth-zone.co.uk/ - the other place...

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Last Edit: 04 Nov 2012 09:22 by diamondgeezer.
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 04 Nov 2012 10:42 #4

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diamondgeezer wrote:
It can't be described as a democracy, because it isn't one.

And Martin Jacques (the author of that article) is a communist....he was editor of the Communist Party of Great Britain's journal, Marxism Today.

Now he writes for the BBC... :roll:
I didn't know that, but it sounds about right.Gilly wrote:
That's a very frightening prospect. I hope it never comes into being. I don't really understand how China can be described as a democracy.
Well his basic argument is that the state is ruthlessly powerful, therefore the people love it, therefore it runs things more efficiently. He doesn't really ever explain how it's a good thing that people don't even get a measly vote in order to change things, or why China has become economically successful, or whether a situation where the people see the state as an embodiment of themselves is a healthy situation, or whether the blind acceptance of authoritarian programmes such as the one-child policy is a good thing. He seems to be saying that China's economy is growing because they have a powerful, unchallenged state, which is supported blindly by the public. Which is bollocks.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 04 Nov 2012 10:43 by wake_up_bomb.
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 04 Nov 2012 12:15 #5

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What a dreadful article!
Set the controls for the heart of the earth.
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 04 Nov 2012 12:36 #6

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Thanks. I understood the article, but thought I'd actually read it being presented as the West & China operating '2 different styles of democracy' in a heading or intro - I've either imagined that or saw it on another site. Sorry. :emb:
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]
Last Edit: 04 Nov 2012 12:39 by Gilly.
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 04 Nov 2012 19:39 #7

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But is a can­di­date voted for by mil­lions a more legit­i­mate choice than one annointed by a select few..

The candidate choices we have have already been annointed by a select few. That's how they got the gig to begin with.
Which bank-bitch shall we choose??

If this is the direction the bbc is going I expect gorgeous George will get a 5live slot soon.
Si me puede disparar los conejos, a continuación, puedo disparar fascistas
Last Edit: 04 Nov 2012 19:39 by hugorune.
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 04 Nov 2012 20:14 #8

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
Well his basic argument is that the state is ruthlessly powerful, therefore the people love it, therefore it runs things more efficiently. He doesn't really ever explain how it's a good thing that people don't even get a measly vote in order to change things, or why China has become economically successful, or whether a situation where the people see the state as an embodiment of themselves is a healthy situation, or whether the blind acceptance of authoritarian programmes such as the one-child policy is a good thing. He seems to be saying that China's economy is growing because they have a powerful, unchallenged state, which is supported blindly by the public. Which is bollocks.

Yep.

Sounds suspiciously like Fascism to me, which just goes to show....far left, far right, same shit.

Extremism sucks.
truth-zone.co.uk/ - the other place...

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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 04 Nov 2012 20:29 #9

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End the puppet show?
I'm all for it
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 04 Nov 2012 21:58 #10

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End the pup­pet show?
I’m all for it

Ha Ha thats great
Last Edit: 04 Nov 2012 21:59 by life2live.
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 04 Nov 2012 23:45 #11

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martg wrote:
End the puppet show?
I'm all for it
This is fine, but what if instead of a theatrical election system and a puppet government, you have a powerful, totalitarian government that crushes all opposition. And they still cosy up to all the corporate interests that the puppet governments do. And you can't vote them out. And if you even speak out against them, you run the risk of disappearing in a van never to be seen again. It's not a particularly attractive prospect.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 05 Nov 2012 03:13 #12

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
martg wrote:
End the puppet show?
I'm all for it
This is fine, but what if instead of a theatrical election system and a puppet government, you have a powerful, totalitarian government that crushes all opposition. And they still cosy up to all the corporate interests that the puppet governments do. And you can't vote them out. And if you even speak out against them, you run the risk of disappearing in a van never to be seen again. It's not a particularly attractive prospect.

I don't see the distinction, that's what we have now, except instead of big grand shows of destroying opposition, we have small groups that infiltrate and subvert any real opposition.
I'm not sure you realise what kind of things are going on beneath the surface in this country, people have disappeared.
people have been through unimaginable torture, people are in prison indefinitely without trial, there are covert military intelligence programs against civilians and eugenics programs being introduced to hospitals.
How much more of a totalitarian police state do you need?
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 05 Nov 2012 03:16 #13

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diamondgeezer wrote:

And Martin Jacques (the author of that article) is a communist....he was editor of the Communist Party of Great Britain's journal, Marxism Today.

Now he writes for the BBC... :roll:

If you decide he is communist that is fine, if you decide that is a bad thing fine. However if you look at his resume you find he has also worked for a bunch of other publications. So why not just focus on the content of the article instead of resorting to using political labels in a negative manner of character assassination.
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 05 Nov 2012 10:14 #14

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i-baster wrote:
If you decide he is communist that is fine,

I didn't decide he is a communist - he did that. Probably around the time he decided to join the Communist Party of Great Britain hey... :roll:
why not just focus on the con­tent of the arti­cle instead of resort­ing to using polit­i­cal labels in a neg­a­tive man­ner of char­ac­ter assassination.

Well considering he is a communist and his article is lauding China which is a communist country, then I'd say his political leanings are quite relevant in regards to discussion of its content, wouldn't you?
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 05 Nov 2012 22:41 #15

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I have to say that I am with the "go fuck yourself you who think you know better brigage".
thank you St Jude for favours granted
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 05 Nov 2012 22:45 #16

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I'm surprised even the BBC would stoop this low tbh.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: BBC: Do People Need to Have the Vote in a 'Democracy'? 05 Nov 2012 23:08 #17

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martg wrote:
I don't see the distinction, that's what we have now, except instead of big grand shows of destroying opposition, we have small groups that infiltrate and subvert any real opposition.
I'm not sure you realise what kind of things are going on beneath the surface in this country, people have disappeared.
people have been through unimaginable torture, people are in prison indefinitely without trial, there are covert military intelligence programs against civilians and eugenics programs being introduced to hospitals.
How much more of a totalitarian police state do you need?
I don't disagree with anything you're saying here, but I'd like to make two points.

Firstly, at least if you have some form or electoral system there's a chance you can turn things around. The US people have once again been easily conned into supporting the establishment candidates, but it's possible that they could actually take back their political system, particularly at the state level, with grass roots political activism. There's no hope of this in China because there is no democratic process. Even Wikipedia describes China thus...
The politics of the People's Republic of China take place in a framework of a single-party socialist republic. The leadership of the Communist Party is stated in the Constitution of the People's Republic of China. State power within the People's Republic of China (PRC) is exercised through the Communist Party of China, the Central People's Government and their provincial and local counterparts.
You cannot possibly spin this into China being democratic, yet the article claims to be discussing whether or not China is a "more legitimate democracy" than the West. That's like saying "is a bacon sandwich a more legitimate form of fruit than a banana?". No, because it's not a piece of fruit at all!

Secondly, of course things are far from perfect in Britain, but try typing what you've just typed in China, and see how you get on. As much as we have a corporate-fascist system in Europe, there are still certain principles of free speech which are held dear, and much though the government tries to clamp down on them, they'll have a tough job to eradicate this idea completely. No such problems in China; they just firewall off the Internet. Don't like it; so what? What do you propose to do about it? You can't vote us out. You can't fight us, we spend over $100 billion on our military every year, and we will put tanks in the street if we need to. You can't complain to your neighbours about us because they're shit scared of us, and 95% of the public blindly support us, and we engineer and micro-manage the entire culture to ensure that no dissenting views are even allowed into the public consciousness.

This is the difference between the two, yet this article is suggesting that China has "more legitimacy".
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 05 Nov 2012 23:10 by wake_up_bomb.
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