mansonatwar.tumblr.com/tagged/Conspiracy/page/3

The Flaws In The Manson Case

by A.C. Fisher-Aldag

Manson was not present at the scene of any murder, he was two hundred miles away. Witnesses have stated such. There is no evidence placing him at the scene of crimes for which he was convicted. He was not allowed to testify at his own trial. He was not allowed to call any witnesses at his trial. He was not allowed to present any physical evidence at his trial. All of this is unconstitutional.
The man who actually did the killings, Charles Watson, was tried separately from Manson and the three women who were convicted. The prosecution did not allow Manson to be tried separately from the three women. The women were coerced by prosecution to testify against Manson. Grand jury statements were made that were preposterous. One woman, Susan Atkins, was clearly mentally ill or under the influence of drugs when she made her grand jury testimony. No evaluation of her competence was ever made. She later rescinded her testimony, but it was still used in the trial
Evidence was botched, lost, and possibly planted. A traffic ticket that Manson received placing him 200 miles away from the crimes at the time of the crimes was “lost”.
There was no testimony from any expert witness to corroborate the prosecution’s claim of “mind control”. I find that entire claim to be ludicrous anyhow; people cannot be hypnotized to perform actions against their moral code, and people cannot be “brainwashed” to do so either.
Several of the victims of the crimes were involved in drugs, child pornography, and had gambling debts, which made them vulnerable to a “mob hit” or contractual killing. Tapes made by Roman Polanski, husband of a victim, which allegedly showed acts of child rape, were lost or suppressed. Polanski was later convicted of having anal sex with a 13 year old girl and fled the country. One theory is that the sex tapes were the motive for murder. Manson testified that he was asked by Polanski to procure young children for Polanski to use in his sex films.
Manson admitted that he had knowledge of the crimes after the fact, but he swears that he had no foreknowledge of the crimes. Those who are accessories after the fact commonly are sentenced to 18 years in California. Originally, Manson was offered EIGHTEEN months by the prosecution if he would testify to the person who ordered the contractual killings. Because he declined to testify against a possible organized crime contractual killer, he was given the death penalty.
Because Manson and his friends lived on a hippy commune and practiced unpopular things such as free love, there was bias against them in the jury pool and other areas of LEN. They were further targeted for their radical environmentalist activities such as burning an earth-mover (I do not agree with violent protest either, but 40 years in a supermax prison is extreme). Manson practiced shamanism in many forms, and condones the use of psychoactive botanicals and other substances for trance work. (For the record, I don’t agree with this practice either, but still, no reason to incarcerate someone for 40 years).
Finally, President Nixon had spoken out about the crimes, declaring Manson guilty; it was on the front page of the newspaper. Nixon allegedly declared Manson guilty as a method of suppressing the hippy movement which was then protesting the Vietnam war. The jury saw the statement made by the president, which should have caused a mistrial.

If I am mistaken in this matter, then I am in good company. Jonny Depp, Henry Rollins, Elijah Blue Allman (Cher’s son), Neil Young, Hank Williams III and many other prominent celebrities all feel that Manson was railroaded. Journalists worldwide have written exposes of the above findings. He is actually a political hero to the Palestinians. You don’t believe everything the press has written about witchcraft, do you? Then why do you believe everything the media says about Manson? Investigate the case for yourself… read the trial transcripts… throw out the self-serving book written by the prosecution.

Does any of that mean he wasn't complicit or at least partly responsible for the crimes? And as for not being able to brainwash people to do things against their moral code, how would the writer of this piece know for sure?

I remind you again of MKUltra and it's off shoots, people do things they would not normally do all the time via threats of violence, coercion let alone psychedelics and brainwashing.

dantesrevival wrote:
You're the third person to bring up mind control without posting anything to confirm the outlandish theory you assert, ie that Manson was mind controlled and or using mind control.

Charles Tex Watson and Linda Kasabian were the key figures in the Tate Labianca murders, i don't think Manson had a negative impact on either who were both very unhinged to begin with, the opposite is true in my opinion, the young products of orthodox American society had the negative effects on him, ending with him spending his life in prison.— Sandra “Blue” Good, 1985

Throughout the years there’s been a debate on Leslie Van Houten and whether or not she deserves to be freed from prison. Most people erroneously connect her to the Tate murders; she was not there. She did go the second night and under Charles “Tex” Watson’s bloody knife, he ordered her to stab Rosemary LaBianca’s already dead corpse. Here are some words from Watson:

"After I’d finished my butchery on the man, I went back to the bedroom and told Leslie to help Katie stab the woman, even though it was obvious that Rosemary LaBianca was already dead. Leslie obeyed me, striking mainly on the exposed buttocks, but with none of the enthusiasm that Katie showed." Will You Die For Me? Chapter 15

Charles “Tex” Watson never hesitates to brag about these murders and in a 1978 issue of Headquarters Detective it was printed that:

"She (Van Houten) should be allowed to go free. She didn’t kill anyone. I was standing over this woman and I noticed Leslie down on the floor. She was terrified! I saw her knife lying beside her and there wasn’t a drop of blood on it. But I was dripping blood all over the place and some got on the handle of her knife. I didn’t want to leave without everyone having at least stuck a knife in the body of one of the victims. I told her to do her part. She was like a wet rag. I pushed her towards this lady sprawled out face down on the floor. The lady was dead. I pushed Leslie down beside her. She shook her head. I turned her face up towards me. I had blood all the way up my arms and I had a knife in my hand. She was one scared girl."

Does this sound like a mindless, programmed/brainwashed robot? Watson did say in his book that even though Manson forbade him to do speed, and to bring speed into the ranch he still did. If Manson had such mind control over him, why didn’t Manson’s “program” work with the drugs issue? He claims that he was willing to kill for Manson, but wasn’t willing to give up drugs for him? Okay, we believe you, Tex.

" Charlie, for all his use of acid, was absolutely against speed. He believed it was bad for your body. But when a young guy from one of the neighboring ranches began sneaking it over, Susan-Sadie, and Bruce Davis, and I started carrying it around in the bottom of a cigarette package. Later we hid it in a Gerbers’ baby-food jar under the porch of one of the buildings. Even after the murders, when I was up in the desert, I tried to get Bruce to find our little baby-food jar of speed, but somehow it had disappeared. I was willing to kill for Manson, but I wasn’t willing to give up my speed." Will You Die For Me? Chapter 12

Free Leslie Van Houten. She is eligible for parole in 2013. It’s a tragedy that when she was released in 1977 that they re-tried her (hung jury) and then re-tried her for a third time (conviction). Charles Watson is the real monster. Leslie Van Houten really did not know Charles Manson that well. It is quite possible that Charles Watson was the one who filled her head with bullshit.

mansonatwar.tumblr.com/tagged/Conspiracy/page/9

It's not a theory and it's not outlandish, it's as possible as the stuff your posting, you just don't agree.

dantesrevival wrote: 3 times I've asked for a link to support the idea Manson was mind controlled, 3 different people have declined to provide one.

Hey Guevarista, I am just catching up with this thread and wanted to throw a few things out there.

First of all, regarding Doris Tate's testimony, you have to understand what her motive was. News reports came out that one of the convicts was up for parole and had received hundreds of signatures on a petition to release them. Doris Tate wanted to make sure that the people who killed her daughter would remain in prison.

I had extensive knowledge of this event before the internet was invented and have several vantage points to view it. In fact, I was in the periphery on several sides including being friends with someone on this list: www.charliemanson.com/whoswho.htm.

If you scan that page it will give you an idea of the cult of fear and obedience that Manson fostered. He was a cult leader in every sense of the word and the antics of his family during the trial showed that in spades.

Earlier you quoted Manson talking about how Tex Watson was a dirty lost hippie who nobody wanted. Would you like to finish that thought for Charlie? As in "and look at him now!" The fact is that Tex Watson had done well at school and was taking some time out in the Summer of Love. If he had never met up with Charlie, I reckon he would not have spent the rest of his life in prison. Aside from that, I think it is possible that Tex had some programming done before he met up with Manson and I think this aspect should not be disregarded.

If you want to gain extra insight into a man, you can watch anyone who spends a lot of time with him and check their mental and emotional stability and how their lives are going. You do acknowledge that he was the leader of his followers, do you not?

I can see that you are just getting into all of this, so maybe you need to digest for awhile. You asked for links regarding the CIA and there are many. This is one of two aspects of the case that I was not aware of until the internet. If you really are interested you can find the links easily but maybe you need to catch up on the background basics before you move to that point.

You said that I sounded religious. Do you know who was religious? Charles Manson. He told his followers that he was the Messiah and that they were the reincarnated first Christians and they believed him. Whether he believed it or not is up for debate. What do you think? Do you think he told them this to control them? Or because he is delusional?

By the way, not that it is really relevant, and even though I know your statement about me sounding religious was a dismissal rather than question, I will answer to that. If by religious, you mean do I belong to an organization, church, cult, then no, and I never have. Also, I was raised in an Atheist household. If you mean religious as in do I have beliefs regarding the spiritual nature of man and a supernatural existence outside the realm of our vision then, yes, I am probably as religious as anyone you will ever meet and my beliefs come from my own direct experience and nobody else's.

Getting back to information that I have gleaned strictly from the internet; this is a piece of trivia that you are probably not ready or interested to get into, but I think it is curious, and that is the connections from Charles Manson to Roman Polanski:

Charles Manson got messages from the Beatles and there is a quote from John Lennon saying that when he was in Los Angeles he parties at "Doris Day's house or whoever's that was". That was Terry Melcher's house, Doris Day's son. Since you have gotten into this, I am sure you know that Terry Melcher lived in the house that was later occupied by Tate and Polanski, and that Melcher rejected Charlie Manson by not agreeing to sign him up or record his music.

(Trivia: I met Terry Melcher on two occasions in the mid 1980's and even though I barely talked to him, much less discussed Charles Manson, I gathered from someone else that he was still very much frightened).

About a year or so previously, John Lennon went on an excursion to India to stay with the Maharashi and Mia Farrow, among many others accompanied him.

John Lennon lived in the Dakota Building in New York, where Rosemary's Baby was filmed which starred Mia Farrow and was directed by Roman Polanski.

So there are several interesting layers to this event including CIA connections and occult connections.

Also, as an aside, I don't know if you have looked into the Patty Hearst case, but I think that it would be right up your alley and that you would find it interesting, also.

Oh, one more thing regarding Charles Manson's being able to testify. Not only did he testify, he fired his lawyer and became his own lawyer. He had also made a long statement in front of the court without the jury present and was asked if he wanted to say all of this with the jury present and he declined.

CIA and Charlie Manson connections
letsrollforums.com/charles-manson-family...ac113424e555361a&;
robertscourt.blogspot.com/2008/06/donate-today.html

Guevarista wrote:
That's because there is no definitive proof, a bit like the stuff your posting, isn't exactly concrete proof is it.

The OP of this thread seems to base all his conclisions on vids he watched & short pieces he read on the web....

I suggest he read The Shadow Over Santa Suzanna by Adam Gorightly

& Sinister Forces::the Manson Secret ..by Peter Levenda.........
At the time of the murders Manson was cash poor & needed money to keep his family together.....& both the murders were paid hits from what I've read.....Sociopaths can be very convincing...take Bill Clinton as an example.....Manson was in prison in 1966 for pimping underage girls...... .Doesn't sound like he had a conscience to me....

The OP sounds like a lawyer defending a guilty client & does not have some his "facts" straight....

the best thing about manson was he really pissed off cathar

Guevarista wrote:
Here's the thing. I've gone really in depth into this before and at the moment I don't have much time to get into it again.

NoseyMuteGirl has posted some good stuff,but there's a lot more to it as well.

The bottom line is there's much more evidence pointing to Manson being MK'd than there is for him being innocent,cuddly,hippie prophet revolutionary like you're trying to make him out to be.

I get where you're coming from. Like I said before. Charles Manson is on a genius level of thinking,but listening to his interviews (as i've done many times before) it's hard not to notice that the man is a sociopath.

Everything he says is geared toward swaying the person he's talking to in the direction he wants them to go.

Now....i'm not saying that's an evil thing,or even a bad thing. That kind of charisma could be used for good.

In Manson's case I think he was recruited for that sole reason,much like Jim Jones.

In the end I do give Manson credit for having a unique and interesting viewpoint/way of thinking,but it's obvious that either he was mind controlled or he really put the thing together on his own.

I lean toward the former.

Doc

Thanks, Doc. I didn't realize how long my post was until I just saw it. I had a lot of coffee this morning.

I think you're right about the mind control.

noseymutegirl wrote:
I'd started this last night but fell asleep not long into it. It's a Coast To Coast AM show discussing Manson and connections & conspiracies associated with the case. Thought it might fit in here. I've always been interested in the whole Manson thing but I can't bring myself to like or respect him due to the fact that he may very well have been responsible for some horrendously bad shit. Even if all he did was pimp underage girls, that's enough for me to not see him as human. His interviews however are somewhat interesting in that they offer an up close view into the mind/thoughts of a life-long convict and possible serial murderer that weaves stories using flows and patterns of pure genius entwined with gibberish and utter criminal insanity.

For the most part, Fuck him. He's a failed experiment. A mad little monkey that should never see the light of day. That being based on gut instinct and my gut doesn't need website links.

Since I'm now essentially talking to a group of you i'll try and be general.

If you read the court transcripts and start from there, then go on witness testimony, "family" testimony, Manson's testimony, why Manson wasn't allowed to defend himself "He might convince the Jury of his innocence", Tex Watson's Testimony, Kasabian's and Atkin's testimony, their own words before, during and after the trials the truth is slightly more visible than it is from the let'sroll.forum, or you saying, he was a CIA sleeper agent (i mean why would they bother?) when they lack a motive, were they doing this with every commune in the sixties, would have required alot of manpower, there must be documentation of such operations?

That stuff is nonsense about Manson's girls being part of a failed coup de etat, do you realize the depth and breadth of conspiracy in the JFK assassination, nearly fifty years on nobody knows for sure who it was, the Vietnam war went on, the perpetrators still hold the power in that equation, do you really think Rockefellar recruited some musical bums from the desert to conduct his attempted coup de etat?



I also think there is a huge industry off the back of Manson and no end of books alleging one thing or another, if we're going to debate this, (as if it hasn't already been done to death) then we should decide on sources and not just have a complete freeforall when authors with a minimal connection to the events 30years later have taken it upon themselves to bolster the official story.

I'm not making Manson out to be anything, as I said I'm going by all the video interviews he did, his music along with his writings, that all speaks for itself, if it creates an image of an innocent,cuddly,hippie prophet rev­o­lu­tion­ary to you then that's fine, I'd just say he was a real human being ie those things and more.

The LaBianca Massacre had nothing to do with “Helter Skelter” or any race war. The murders were not random as Vincent Bugliosi stated in his book Helter Skelter.

The Family had gone to parties next door at Family confidant Harold True’s home.
The Family had previously creepy crawled the LaBiancas.
In 1991 Charles Manson admitted that he knew about Leno LaBianca’s ties to the mafia and his primary reason was to rob them and take his “black book.”
Rosemary LaBianca’s daughter Suzan was a girlfriend of the Straight Satans— the Spahn Ranch resident motorcycle gang. She later sided with Charles Watson and pushed for his release from prison.
Harold True had a hand drawn map from Spahn Ranch to his home using only back roads.
At the time of the trial Harold True fled the country to avoid being subpoenaed.
Charles Manson did not tie up the LaBiancas as stated in the book Helter Skelter; Charles Watson admitted that he did in 1978.
Charles Watson rented a home owned by Leno LaBianca at one time.
Linda Kasabian, Watson’s girl, lived next door to the LaBiancas.

(Source: Charles Manson Now)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tex_Watson

Watson was a 22 year old small town guy & college drop out with no criminal record when he took up with Manson.

Manson was a 32 year old hardened criminal who had studied Scientology in prison....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson
A pimp needs to know how to manipulate & control his whores....Manson was at least 10 years older than most of his "family"...
& had an IQ of about 120......