I think I've concluded that to me Manson is just a real human being, that's why I like him, to me he is a captivating speaker, what he speaks on is enlightening, he reflects some light on the darkest corners of our society, people hold him up as a prophet i think more an honest and curious individual

Manson was an opponent of Free Trade and exploitation of the environment:
www.allthewayalive.com/One_World_Order/atwa.html

So what of the cult stuff and mass murder spree? Not down to him? Or you can be a real human being influence peole to kill?

He says a lot of good stuff, reminds of a politician in that regards, easy to spout good shit when your banged up and never going to be able to act on it.

People should be judged by their actions anyone can say anything, in the end it's what you do that counts and if half of what he is supposed to have done with his people is true then he is a bad man.

Hey man doing about forty years incarcerated in solitary is quite an achievement, it's a reflection of modern life, alienation, the way we treat "outsiders".

You probably know yourself he wasn't at the scene of the crime, a young girl and a young guy who were involved were offered reduced sentences for ratting out Manson, take from that what you will, I think he was dangerous culturally and ideologically, he was influential among young women and the LA music scene, was possibly was privy to certain information about key figures in the Nixon administration, alot of what you're talking about, the cult stuff, the mass murder spree never involved Manson, can a real human being be influenced to kill?

Sure yes people can be I influenced to the point they will kill, look at the mkultra program and it's offshoots, they are not figments of people's over active imagination, tbh who knows how responsable Manson was but wasnt he bat shit crazy when arrested as he is now?

What people seem to discount with the mkultra thing is how prolific and ongoing their operations still are, I don't think Manson was an MKUltra drone personally I think many who got behind the media, Prosecution and Nixon campaign to (literally) demonize him were more drone like, and more likely to be the target of MKUltra programming as a mass of easily manipulated people, after the techniques were perfected in the labs what do you think they were used for?

There are interesting links between various cults, intelligence agencies and things like Lucid Dreaming, Channelling etc that are prominent in the New Age genre.

Sure maybe, if anything he would have been part of the program as a facilitator a bit like Jim Jones, a lot of weird shit going on then.

Are you saying then that you think he was ok and not involled in the killings?

What killings specifically do you think he was involved in?
Edit can you cite an actual evidenced case in which an MK ultra test subject was used to kill somebody?

Depends what you call evidence, Have you seen evidence of revision? deals with the Robert Kennedy killing and jones town massacre.

As for Manson, well the Tate killings and the others attributed to his so called family, like I said, easy to talk the talk when you don't have to walk it.

i always kinda liked charlie. if they only had let him into the monkees...

batou wrote:
He was always more likely to be a beach boys extra.

You know, like John Stamos....



But they pinned him so it wasnt to be.

I think 'Full House' would have been interesting if Manson was one of the dudes in that house.

Guevarista wrote:
You are incorrect. They were all sentenced to death (Charlie, Tex, Susan, Patricia and Leslie) which was later reduced to life sentences when California revoked the death penalty causing everyone who had been sentenced before 1971 to then have life imprisonment instead of death.

Not one of them have ever been released (Susan recently died in prison). The only one who was made a deal was Linda Kasabian, the driver of the car and the "lookout" who was chief witness for the prosecution.

Manson controlled every aspect of the lives of his folllowers, including telling them when and where the murders were to take place. Also, at the LaBiance murder scene, Manson went in and tied the hands of the victims and then left the scene with directives to the others. Manson killed Gary Gilmore, a music teacher, and cut his ear off for a souvenior. He also killed Shorty Shea, a ranch hand at the Spahn Ranch and chopped him up and buried the pieces all over the ranch. He was a self proclaimed guru and fed his "family" LSD accompanied with a constant barrage of "there is no such thing as murder" and used Shorty as a demonstration. He led their hallucinating minds to believe that killing others was doing others a favor.

He made it a practice to surround himself with young impressionable people, mostly women and mostly runaways, and thought the "flower children" of the day were ripe and ready for his indoctrination and was also known to drug and sodomize newcomers as initiation into the family, no matter what their age was.

It is possible he was brainwashed himself since he grew up in institions, but he went on and brainwashed many others. As far as I am concerned, he should not only be held responsible for those who were murdered but also for completely destroying the lives of his followers because I believe that he damaged them spiritually and has caused them to live the rest of their lives in a state of suffering.

Exactly.

From everything that I know about him I believe he is a true psycopath with zero empathy for others and a huge need to manipulate and control others and a huge ego that wants to be worshipped as a leader/guru/god.
Dangerous only because he preyed upon younger people who were looking for answers and Charlie pretended to have them. Yes,he was influential among young women. A pimp of sorts, since he told women who they should have sex with. Mainly, he used his female followers as bait so he could get some muscle into the family. As far as being influential on the LA music scene....... no, not at all. He really wanted to be part of it though, and this was another area where he used his girls to gain entrance into the lives of those who were actually in the LA music scene.

I usually don't post, Guevarista, but your post really rankles me.

Good post, thanks for making the effort.

If Manson could write a in depth book about his childhood and teen years, it would make millions

I don't think he could, Rick. I think he is incapable of speaking genuinely, it is all propaganda in that everything he says is contrived and designed to influence the listener instead of just honest communication.

But if it was possible for him to be sincere and recollect his past, it would be an insightful read, I think.
His mom was a hooker and he never knew his dad, as I remember, he was first incarcerated at age 13 for auto theft and was in and out of prison for the rest of his life. He knows how to talk, though. Sometimes psychos are quite bright and there have been many murderers who have been described as being charismatic.

Hi miss, thanks for making the effort with your post.
This would appear to be contradicted by the fact he went off to live in the desert alone, the fact he was a magnetic individual and attracted young impressionable people, does not mean he was some polygamist cult leader, at least by choice.

This is along the lines of the kind of response that interests me the most, please define brainwashed, do you think it is less or more likely that he was "brainwashed" than a well educated, well adjusted, product of an orthodox american upbringing?

Personal I don't think he had "followers" in the sense you are using it, I think he had idol worshippers or hero worshippers, disaffected, alienated products of middle class American society who identified with something in Charlie and looked up to him, I don't think you can blame him for that, it's interesting though, you mention Kasabian who had worked with and been close to Lavey and the Church of Satan, and then go on to say it was Charlie that damaged her Spiritually?

You have a bunch of young people who were the product of an American upbringing and education that saw them, break all contact with their parents, leave home to go live in the desert, taking drugs, living hand to mouth amongst the animals and who looked up more to a wandering bum with a guitar than their parents, or Nixon or anyone in Hollywood, the formative years of their life had nothing to do with Manson, they weren't children when they went to live with Charlie.

Charlie speaks about Tex and what a damaged young man he was when he came to Charlie, it makes more sense to me that way, I'm not saying Charlie was some Christ like figure healing them, but he wasn't some devil turning these pure tabula rasa into satanic killers, both explanations discount the autonomy and humanity of the individuals referred to as "the family".

They liked him cause he was happy, free, liberated, empathic, all the things these potentially successful, intelligent young individuals saw was missing in their lives in orthodox society.

I don't think you have an impartial, objective perspective really missnoseymutegirl, but your entitled to your opinion.

He never went off to live in the desert alone. When he was released from prison in '67 he immediately went to San Francisco. Later, he took his so called family to Death Valley. Like any good cult leader he needed to isolate his followers from society so he could have complete control.

You said they were attracted to him because he was happy. I would really disagree with that. He wasn't happy. I don't think that someone who is content within themselves needs or wants to control others. Would you describe someone who gives a 13year old girl LSD and then commences to sodomize her and then have her gang banged a Happy Fellow? What about someone who is evil enough to convince others to do murder? Does that come from a state of bliss? And by the way, when he wen into the LaBianca's home, tied them up and left the others with directives...... he knew exactly what he was doing.

Charlie was trying to start a race war. As he explained it, he was orchestrating murders around the Los Angeles basin that would eventually be pinned on a black man, a race war would ensue and then, as Charlie saw it, the black people would win because they were physically stronger. But, he said they were intellectually weak, so they would have to come to Charlie and say "what do we do now?" and Charlie would be on top and in charge. The Beatles' White Album told him all of this.

Fortunately for Los Angeles, Charlie and his cohorts were arrested for stealing cars and while in jail, Susan Atkins could not help but brag about the murders.

When I talk about his family being brainwashed, what I mean is that when a man in his mid thirties is is giving people who are 10-20 years younger than him and searching for alternative lifestyles, LSD and continually espouse life as he sees it, it is possible to brainwash them. He told them he was the devil, he told them he was Jesus Christ, he told them what to do and when to do it and who to have sex with and how. He took over every aspect of their lives. So, in this case, I use the term brainwashed, as in what a cult leader does. Isolate, disorientate, manipulate, pontificate, fornicate, etc.

I think the orthodox American upbringing can be its own form of brainwashing but it is at the other end of the spectrum because if someone is well adjusted and well educated (your words) they are less likely to being searching for answers or change, but would be more accepting of the status quo even if it is bullshit.

What I meant by spiritually damaged, is that I believe that when someone commits murder that their spirit actually becomes deformed and if you could see it, it would look different than it did before. I think that if any of these murderers had not met Charlie, that they would not be murderers. So, I agree that he was influential.

Charlie was empathic? Seriously?

I look forward to reading your other posts in the forum, you have some key errors that people tend to regurgitate about the case in that one, for instance even Sharon Tate's mother says Manson was innocent, even the DA Bugliosi has conceeded he elaborated that Helter Skelter nonsense, you make out you know about the case but state fundamentally biased errors as "facts".

Carlie was empathic?
What source material do we respectively go on?

I go on having watched all Manson's videos and many in which the people who lived with him "the family" describe what he was like.

You seem to go on the prosecution accusations and media propaganda, even worse you assert he was a child abuser for which I've seen no evidence, you also appear to be quite religious.

Manson is a very intelligent man,however the whole thing t me seems like a mind control op from start to finish.

Much like Jim Jones, I believe Manson was sort of set up as a "figure" to these people and more than likely observed to see how far he could push them.

Ole Charlie is innocent of murder that's true. It's hard to deny he's a textbook sociopath,and whether the government set up him to do what he did or he did it on his own,it's obvious that they don't want him at large in society.

Doc

Doc_Gonzo wrote: Post evidence of a "mind control op" please, verifiable, factual evidence please, i prefer reading to watching a video so give me your best sources, it would be nice to know what makes Charlie likely to be one.

Miss nosey has so far declined to post evidence of mind control victims being murderers, I don't see why the government or cia would have an MO to turn Manson into a bum with a guitar who left society to go live in the desert?