At the end of last week I got a letter from a "Credit Management" company about outstanding National Insurance contributions.

Today I rang them up....
The nice man at the other end of the phone, once satisfied that I am me, opened with the line "So how do you want to pay?"
He seemed rather taken aback when I replied, "Pay? No I'm not going to pay anything. I want to know who you are and what capacity you are operating in which leads you to think you can send me an unsolicited letter containing a thinly veiled threat."
He was a decent enough chap and gave me the answers I required. In summary, HMRC are now using private companies to chase up accounts that the HMRC computers say are in arrears. This isn't a scenario like a debt collector who buys a debt at a reduced rate and then makes their money by extricating the full amount. This company are directly contracted to HMRC to supply a service, for profit of course...

During the conversation I asked him if he had any proof that I actually owe HMRC a penny. Did he have my accounts or Self assessment return in front of him? Could he show any evidence whatsoever that the figure he was trying to extract from me was in fact due? Of course he had no such thing, he just had a figure on a screen with my name and NI number next to it.
In reality, I KNOW that I don't lawfully owe them a penny. I keep reasonably good accounts and can show this is the case based on them and HMRC self assessment certificates. The phone call ended with the nice man confirming that his firm will be taking no further steps with regard to my account and will be referring it back to HMRC...

Obviously a large amount of people when presented with a letter such as the one I received would simply pay up through fear of Baliffs and the such like. They may assume that it's all legit and that HMRC has passed the debt on to a recovery agency.
They are playing on people's fears and ignorance.

So this is yet another example of what Mussolini called true fascism, the merger of State and Private industry. In this case operating rather like a Mafia protection racket.....

ers

Is it a merging though, or multi-nationals actually taking over the State?

It doesn't surprise me in the least.

Having worked as an auditor for a debt collection company in the past, I witnessed first hand how the government had instructed them in the recovery of a great many 'debts' on their behalf, and was truly appalled by what was going on.

These included all manner of claims against people, dating back in some cases by decades - they resulted from the loss of, or failure to keep accurate records, as opposed to being genuine outstanding balances.

The collection companies contact regarding these alleged debts was the first the victims had heard about them, and were things like...

"Dear Mr Smith, as you commenced work on 3rd August, 1972, you were overpaid by £36.20 in dole money, and this now needs to be repaid in full immediately."

"...there is a £111.53 outstanding balance for a budgeting loan which you took out in 1983..."

etc. etc. etc.

If this were a creditor, they'd have no leg to stand on, but because it is governmental departments, the onus is on the individual to prove they don't owe it.

They had them chasing people for CSA payments, where both parties concerned had acknowledged in writing that either the payments had been made, or that there was an agreement between them that the figure should not be pursued. Also, where the CSA payment amount had not been duly reduced based on a notified reduction in income.

They bullied and harassed people in a way that would be deemed illegal, where it anyone else conducting themselves in this manner.

It was bloody horrifying, and I used to spend as much of my time as I could get away with, not conducting audits / training, but explaining to said 'debtors' how they could get out of paying, then following their cases up for them with the fricking CSA / DWP.

I haven't got the vocabulary to express my disgust.

If any company or sole trader / partnership (admittedly it wouldn't, apparently apply to banks) exhibited such a wanton negligence in the handling of the public's money H fookin MRC would be breathing flames down their necks!

*deleted*
Had a moment to reread OP w/out a psychotic dog or demon child jumping on me... different content than I got the first three times around, so this post is invalid. Apologies Dubs

Best of luck to you in handling this without being drug through a ditch.

I was under the immoression that if there was a shortfall in your NI contributions dur to you have say not worked, been on benefits or say out of the country you could optionally top up to get a full state pension at retirement age.

I assume less people are topping up as they are wise to the fact that we may not get much of a pension regardless of how much we pay the state.

Gilly wrote:


I think that side of humanity has been trained out of most.

dantesrevival wrote: That's a class 3 voluntary contribution Dante.
Class 2, which is what they said I owe is compulsory for those that are SE, when you clear over 5k and a bit per annum.

jhado wrote:
Essentially, I see it as the State operating as the facilitator and enforcer for the Corporate.

Ah ok mate, fuck the slags, don't forget to say "no contract" as they drag you away to the debtors prison in chains (snigger mutely styley)

Creditors (except the government) can't do anything about a 7 year old debt - so long as you refuse to enter any verbal or written conversation with them about it. That's the way it works over here anyway (or did when I was auditing a few years back - dunno if anything's changed). But as soon as you speak with those pursuing you about it, it's back to square 1 again, with them having rights in some cases to escalate matters through legal channels.

Sounds very similar to the old adverse possession in that regard Gilly, ie no contact, no acknowledgement being the way to do it.

So, anyone got any other examples of how this sort of thing is now in the hands of the profit motive?

Again, things might have changed in the years since I was self-employed, but it used to be that you were only obliged to keep your books for 6 years. I'd definitely recommend that you keep them for as long as you've got space to store them somewhere - so when HMRC come after you for something dating beyond the 6 years, you've still got your records to prove them wrong.

And never forward them the original copy of anything - only photo copies, because otherwise, they'll conveniently lose them.

I'm tempted to play a little game with them tbh.
I read today that IF you owe them money for NI they can only take it to court after 6 years. The chap today mentioned that apparently the supposed 'debt' goes back to 2007. Which means that they could theoretically issue a summons sometime next year. I'm tempted to have nothing to do with them until then. At which point I could supply one document as evidence, the self assessment certificate for 2007, which shows I am not liable I could then play that game every year and waste them a lot of time and money
Not really the responsible thing to do though considering that the cost would be borne by taxpayers so I won't go that route.

In the age of the computer you wouldn't think it'd be too hard for the income tax dept of HMRC to be connected to the NI dept would you... As in the NI dept should be able to see that your taxable earnings fell below the threshold. But obviously this is a case of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing. That is of course costing the tax payer and nowadays it seems, putting profit in the hands of the private sector. Ah wait, that's what it's about isn't it

dubmeup wrote: I would struggle to name something that is completely state or publicly run. It would be doubly difficult to do the above if you were trying to name a publicly run and funded organisation that didn't have a huge ulterior motive. Everything is privatised, everything is open to corporate cronyism.

Go Dubs!

I miss these kind of tete-a-tetes not having a firm enough grasp of the lingo here yet.

Although I have had one follow me kind of (got to my dad!) for recalculated costs of my electricity card meter for a 14 year period. Heard nowt since I pointed out I was only ever resident for 10 of those years and at no point had a card meter.

dubmeup wrote:
Wow...interesting stuff dubs.
And here's me thinking that only italy and its 'technocrat' dictatorship used private tax collectors...

I guess this is the way its going to go then. Privatisation of inland revenue next then? Perhaps selling it to the IMF? lol...