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TOPIC: Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised

Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 08 Apr 2013 11:03 #1

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blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jeremywarn...ally-raised-not-cut/
Minimum wage should be substantially raised, not cut

According to a report in this morning's Daily Telegraph, the Low Pay Commission is to have its terms of reference changed in a manner which would allow it to freeze or even cut the minimum wage if the economic uncertainty continues. This is wrong headed, not just morally, but economically. We should be substantially raising the minimum wage, not cutting it, particularly now with the economy down in the dumps.

Like motherhood and apple pie, everyone can agree that in theory at least it would be a very good thing if everyone was paid more. But there are of course powerful economic arguments why we cannot all be Rolls Royce owners. High pay for all undermines competitiveness and could render a lot of small, marginal businesses struggling to make ends meet redundant. It might also compound the problem of youth unemployment, since companies would tend to favour older, more experienced workers over younger ones if forced to pay a higher minimum, or what is sometimes called a "living wage". A third potential negative is that it might encourage undue and unsustainable levels of immigration.

Yet according to recent research conducted by the National Institute for Economic and Social Research for the Resolution Foundation, these dangers are massively over estimated. Indeed, the NIESR findes that in aggregate the reduction in conditional labour demand with the Living Wage is around 160,000, or just 0.5 per cent of the workforce. Admittedly, demand for young unskilled workers would be much more seriously affected – 300,000 according to the research – but this could presumably be mitigated through differential rates, as is already partially the case with the minimum wage.

As for the wider effects on UK competitiveness, I suspect these would be pretty limited too. Most big, internationally competitive companies operating in the UK already pay all their UK employees a living wage – recently defined as £7.20 an hour nationally and £8.30 for London (the minimum wage is currently £6.19 an hour with no London differential) – so they would be unaffected.

Low pay tends to be confined to four or five sectors which are largely immune to considerations of international competitiveness – wholesale and retail, hotels and catering, community and social services, seasonal agriculture, and less skilled intensive manufacturing. These industries substantially cater for domestic demand, and therefore cannot easily be offshored. To force them to pay more might therefore have inflationary consequences, but it wouldn't necessarily lead to significant loss of overall employment.

Some fellow "right" leaning commentators have told me I deserve to be taken out and shot for peddling "leftie nonsense". Wages should be left to the market to decide, and to the extent that there is a case for raising the living standards of the low paid, it should be done through tax cuts.

I don't necessarily quarrel with these suggestions, but consider this. To take those on the minimum wage – roughly £12,000 a year for a full time employee – totally out of income tax and national insurance would "cost", according to my back of the envelope calculations, something approaching £20bn. Such a tax cut is not feasible with the deficit still running at 8pc of GDP, and in any case would require offsetting spending cuts which really would begin to drill at the very foundations of the welfare state. The Coalition's little efforts at excavation really don't, despite Labour's squeals of outrage.

By contrast, substantially raising the minimum wage immediately addresses two major economic anomalies. One is the now perverse growth in corporate profits and cash accumulation. Rather than being recycled into the economy, which is what happens in normal times, corporate profits are being hoarded, further eating into demand. In the US, corporate profits as a proportion of GDP are at a record high. Wages, by contrast, are at a post war low. Again I don't lightly dismiss the right to make or even hoard profits, but things are getting seriously out of quilter. This is not the way capitalism is supposed to work, where wealth accumulation gets shared through trickle down effects. The division of spoils has reached a level which if unaddressed threatens to be dangerously destabilising, socially and politically.
The other issue concerns the use of means tested tax credits to top up people's take home pay. That the taxpayer should be subsidising low paid work in this way is totally absurd and should be ended as soon as possible. Indeed it explains quite a lot of Britain's economic predicament – with excessive levels of household borrowing and now fast growing government debt. Debt has become a substitute for income.

Unfortunately, the National Institute makes no attempt to model what the effects on government revenues would be from introducing a living wage, in terms of the savings on tax credits, other forms of benefit, and the gains from tax revenues, but they would obviously be quite substantially positive, allowing for compensating tax cuts to business.

I'm not saying that statutory introduction of a living wage would be without its downsides. The most serious of these is that it would be inflationary. Some small traders, already struggling to compete with the likes of Tesco, might be put out of business. But if phased in over time, the long term economic impact on domestic demand would be overwhelming positive and to my mind undoubtedly preferable to alternative approaches to demand management such as fiscal stimulus or further money printing.

By the way, there is quite a bit of Tory support for this line of argument. Matt Hancock MP last week articulated a not dissimilar agenda for dealing with the problem of low pay.
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 08 Apr 2013 12:12 #2

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'The other issue concerns the use of means tested tax credits to top up people's take home pay. That the taxpayer should be subsidising low paid work in this way is totally absurd and should be ended as soon as possible. Indeed it explains quite a lot of Britain's economic predicament '

lol no shit...

This is basically all about getting more tax from the bottom of the barrel though isn't it?
The businesses pay higher wages but its the wage earners who are paying the taxes and taking the guys explanation above, the wage earners are not going to be any better off at all, they'll be just the same because the benefits will be removed and the tax base will be higher, simple as.

The big corporates will still contribute jack shit, nothing above addresses that just as the BBC completely ignored the guardians report recently that as much as $32 TRILLION is sat in the british virgin islands.
Then theres the cayman islands etc.

This is merely 'new tory' thinking, its still the same authoritarian business biased bullshit, you may as well call it 'new labour' who are also in the same boat and indeed as the new political compass correctly states IMHO the labour party are now right wing authoritarian EXACTLY as the tories are and EXACTLY as the libdems are.

There has been a slow steady infiltration of govt via business interests, training institutions and think tanks/NGO's common purpose for example.
What the elite want is borg like thinking in govt just as much as in the general populace, they don't want people seeing what is IMHo staggeringly obvious as I pointed out above. This still removes the strong action required which would be complete outlaw of all tax havens but such action currently can only be taken unilaterally, few govts have the balls or the willpower to do it.
Ireland itself relies heavily on their low corp tax rate for example, without it they would be screwed the business would bugger off somewhere else. This is really what we are up against.
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 08 Apr 2013 18:40 #3

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andyh wrote:
'The other issue concerns the use of means tested tax credits to top up people's take home pay. That the taxpayer should be subsidising low paid work in this way is totally absurd and should be ended as soon as possible. Indeed it explains quite a lot of Britain's economic predicament '

lol no shit...
You'd think so, but you'd be surprised how many people aren't aware of this, genuinely don't know how many jobs are subsidised.
Ireland itself relies heavily on their low corp tax rate for example, without it they would be screwed the business would bugger off somewhere else. This is really what we are up against.
Yeah, I totally agree, it is extremely difficult. This is why I don't look to or expect the government to do anything serious to challenge vested interests because they don't really have any power over them. They need them more than the vested interests need the British market, for example. Of course, the corporate interests themselves are well aware of this. It would be nice, though, if they didn't bend over backwards to accommodate them all the time, but 'journalists' are so confused about what's going on, never mind the general public, that they can get away with it. I listened to the radio a bit this afternoon, and just heard some staggering nonsense regarding Thatcher, for example.
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 08 Apr 2013 19:01 #4

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National minimum wage is there, in principal to prevent perceived exploitation of employees however I think the emergence of zero hours contracts, which are becoming far more common and hardly discussed when debating employment for 'lower paid jobs' are a far bigger issue
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 08 Apr 2013 19:38 #5

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dawnbreak wrote:
National minimum wage is there, in principal to prevent perceived exploitation of employees however I think the emergence of zero hours contracts, which are becoming far more common and hardly discussed when debating employment for 'lower paid jobs' are a far bigger issue
Hi Dawn, it's nice to see you, yes, you're right of course the number of actual full-time jobs being created is derisory. And it's worth noting that the author of the article in the OP attributes the minimum wage as being £12,000, which would be about a 37 hour working week. Of course, many minimum wage jobs don't provide a 37 hour working week, and if you don't work 30 hours per week you can't even claim the full amount of tax credits.
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 08 Apr 2013 19:59 #6

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I might sound harsh here but not a fan a working tax credits.

Working tax credits were invented to try and solve the problem that the wages offered by many employers are too low in comparison to the cost of living (rent, ultilties, food) and reduce the number of unemployed on the books

I'm a great believer that it is now down to the employer to pay a decent wage that allows it's employee to live whilst working without relying on benefits.

Cheap employment by employers is Businesses not fulfilling their part of the emploee/employer contract .....if your employee is working fulltime and still cant afford to live and pay normal expenses your wages are too low.

However the WTC give some employers the buffer to keep their wages down which is not right
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 08 Apr 2013 20:05 #7

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also if private landlords got to grips with how much money their tenants could actually afford to pay it would save the governments millions in housing benefit payments
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 08 Apr 2013 20:43 #8

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Yes, I agree completely on both counts. The problem with regard to tax credits is that the value of labour has been steadily decimated to the point where it is totally disposable, and these huge multinational corporations don't have to pay decent wages, and small companies genuinely can't compete. It would be much better for all jobs to pay a living wage, I totally agree with you there, but as this inevitably won't happen in the foreseeable future at least if someone receives tax credits it supplements their meagre income. In principle, I totally agree with you, though.
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 08 Apr 2013 21:02 #9

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*cough*Maximum wage*cough*
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 09 Apr 2013 10:17 #10

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oioioi wrote:
*cough*Maximum wage*cough*

Yep, said it myself a few times :)
Even if such a thing ever arose we'd only ever see it applied to the top PAYE workers such as those in the public service.

You can't apply a maximum wage to the corporate directors because they don't get paid 'wages'. It comes in the form of other extras.
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 09 Apr 2013 11:28 #11

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andyh wrote:
Yep, said it myself a few times :)
Even if such a thing ever arose we'd only ever see it applied to the top PAYE workers such as those in the public service.

You can't apply a maximum wage to the corporate directors because they don't get paid 'wages'. It comes in the form of other extras.
Top ten corporations in the world in terms of assets have circa $25 trillion between them:

Toptenh


Top ten corporations in the world in terms of sales made approximately $4 trillion worth last year:

Topten2s


Percentage of world's population living on less than $2 per day:

2dollarsperday


That pretty much sums up the current world situation, I would think.
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 09 Apr 2013 11:47 #12

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Anyone who needs more than 5 grand a week should be considered a drain on resources, bizarrely we revere them and say anyone really really poor is a drain on resources.
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 09 Apr 2013 11:48 #13

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I have to laugh at that top one.

Fannie Mae, Assets = 3.2 trillion. Market Value 1.8 Billion. lmfao!!!
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 09 Apr 2013 11:51 #14

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oioioi wrote:
Anyone who needs more than 5 grand a week should be considered a drain on resources, bizarrely we revere them and say anyone really really poor is a drain on resources.

/considers changing forum sig.

This is the modern attitude in a nutshell.
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 09 Apr 2013 11:54 #15

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andyh wrote:
I have to laugh at that top one.

Fannie Mae, Assets = 3.2 trillion. Market Value 1.8 Billion. lmfao!!!
Yeah, just because they had $3.2 trillion worth of assets doesn't mean they could make a profit! In fact, they needed a couple of hundred billion from taxpayers to keep afloat, but they then kept all their profits for themselves when they made $17 billion one year later. I think I'd want to keep that system going if I were them!
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Even the Torygraph Argues the Minimum Wage Should be Raised 09 Apr 2013 11:57 #16

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Perhaps the market is saying that all that housing is 1700 times overpriced? :p
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