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TOPIC: Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand)

Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 11:39 #1

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www.thomsons.com/page/33386/uk/events-an...receives-mp-backing-
The reinstatement of a scheme that will enable businesses to offer employees shares in return for reduced employee rights has received the backing of MPs.

The employee shareholder proposal was originally outlined by chancellor George Osborne as part of the Growth and Infrastructure Bill, but was defeated following a House of Lords vote.

However, the proposals, which would see companies remove some employment rights, including those concerning redundancy, for at least £2,000 in shares, have now been passed by MPs by a margin of 277 to 239.

According to business minister Michael Fallon, the scheme will be "wholly voluntary", while people on Jobseeker's Allowance will not be penalised for refusing to opt in to the initiative.

The scheme has been met with criticism in many circles, however, with Frances O'Grady, general secretary of the TUC, claiming employee benefits and employment rights "should not be for sale".

"Employers do not want to buy them, and employees will not want to sell them. What is worse is that its only real practical use is as a tax dodge," she added.
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Last Edit: 18 Apr 2013 11:39 by wake_up_bomb.
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 11:50 #2

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How could people on JSA possibly opt in to such a scheme if they have no job to begin with?

Dazed and c0nfuz0r3d.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 11:50 #3

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thanks WUB. I had heard about this farce.

But I looked into the source:Thomsons Online Benefits
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomsons_Online_Benefits
Their CEO wrote this article about the budget.
bdaily.co.uk/technology/21-03-2013/budge...tfield-ceo-thomsons/

You might find it interesting
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 12:12 #4

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andyh wrote:
How could people on JSA possibly opt in to such a scheme if they have no job to begin with?

Dazed and c0nfuz0r3d.
The conditions under which you receive your JSA can and will be altered at any time...mikey mikey wrote:
thanks WUB. I had heard about this farce.

But I looked into the source:Thomsons Online Benefits
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomsons_Online_Benefits
Their CEO wrote this article about the budget.
bdaily.co.uk/technology/21-03-2013/budge...tfield-ceo-thomsons/

You might find it interesting
Thanks, I'm not sure why this isn't a bigger news story. You can read the FT discussing how the Lib Dems needed to fall into line on it here a month ago:

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3e6f723e-9230-11e2-a6...0.html#axzz2QoPHZJrZ

AOL are discussing it here:

money.aol.co.uk/2013/04/16/shares-for-rights-move-back-in-bill/

There's a discussion of the vote here:

www.hrmagazine.co.uk/hro/news/1076961/sh...d-house-commons-vote

But I can't find any MSM coverage of this at all, despite the fact that numerous newspapers reported on the original vote being defeated.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 18 Apr 2013 12:12 by wake_up_bomb.
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 12:44 #5

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
But I can't find any MSM coverage of this at all, despite the fact that numerous newspapers reported on the original vote being defeated.

I think I remember learning about it on RT.

But the whole story has been squashed in the MSM: back door legislation forced through. :mad:

It just means that employees will lose what little legal rights they have left. :suicide:
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 13:46 #6

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This stuck in my mind:
George Osborne has invited employees to give up their workplace rights in exchange for owning tax-free shares in their companies.

In a speech which was greeted with luke-warm applause at the Conservative Party Conference in Birmingham, the Chancellor jokingly borrowed the Marxist slogan "workers of the world unite" to launch his new scheme.

The plan effectively involves workers gambling on their career prospects, by sacrificing their protection against unfair dismissal and other rights in return for profits on company shares which will be free from capital gains tax.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/george...ployment-rights.html

Adrian Beecroft is the brains behind it.
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 14:03 #7

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So if I can exchange rights for more shares, can I exchange shares for more rights?

No?

Thought not.

Obviousl con coming: company directors know that the company is going bust alla HMV and start offering emloyees to this. When they go into administration, the shares will be worth FA- and there will be no redundancy payments?

played
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 14:16 #8

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David Poole, UK director at the Employee Share Ownership (Esop) Centre, criticised Chancellor George Osborne’s stance on employee share schemes.

Speaking at Employee Benefits Connect, Poole said he was worried that all the government departments involved in the employee share ownership agenda would head in different directions.

“If the communication between those departments isn’t up to scratch, you risk everyone tripping over each other and nothing being achieved,” he said.

Poole (pictured) also criticised Osborne’s 2012 announcement that staff could trade employment rights for shares in their organisation, saying it has distorted employees’ views of share schemes.

“I don’t think it’s been helpful, particularly with the press coverage and the idea of employee ownership being associated with an idea that perhaps isn’t what most people thought employee share ownership was,” he said.

“We have been working with trade unions and, having come through a very long journey towards ‘OK, we’re warming to the idea’, now [share ownership] is seen as a negative again.

“Share ownership is apolitical, but is now attached to quite a political idea.”

After the April issue of Employee Benefits went to press the employee ownership scheme was blocked by the House of Lords.
www.employeebenefits.co.uk/benefits/shar...tance/101397.article
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 14:27 #9

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The government has also confirmed that it will support the creation of a UK Employee Ownership Day on 4 July.

Nick Clegg, deputy prime minister, said: “I want to see employee-owned firms hardwired into the British economy and I welcome the Employee Ownership Association’s ambitious plans for growth, outlined in the new guide to employee ownership published today.

“Up and down the country, across public and private sectors, people-centered workplaces are contributing more and more to the economy and, through tough economic times, these firms can outperform others.

“I want to go further, which is why, from April next year we’ll inject £50 million into the sector, making it easier for staff to take over the running of [organisations] and for new firms to set up under employee-owned models.”

Jo Swinson, minister of employment relations and consumer affairs, added: “The EOA has set a bold and challenging target for businesses.

“The evidence shows that employee ownership can make an important difference in building a stronger economy and a fairer society.”

Ian Hasdell, chief executive officer at the EOA, said: “It is very positive that [Clegg] is endorsing the economic business case for more employee ownership set out in the new report.

“Employee ownership in the UK is growing and the businesses concerned thriving, because they enhance the working conditions and entitlements of employee owners. Clearly, what our members wish to see is the translation of these helpful words of support into bold practical action from government, particularly on taxation, that will help to deliver on our mission to increase the contribution of employee ownership to 10% of UK GDP by 2020.”

Michael Thompson, chief executive of employee-owned Childbase Partnership, added: “The evidence is undeniable: organisations that put employee wellbeing and collaboration at the centre of their operation reap the benefits of increased productivity and quality.

“That these results have been achieved by employee-owned organisations in the midst of recession, and in spite of current restrictions, makes a compelling case for government action now to support the process.

“The reality is that without incentivised support for entrepreneurs and their employees to pursue co-ownership, few will be willing to take the financial risk of drastically changing their company structures and practices.”
www.employeebenefits.co.uk/home/report-o...ished/101655.article
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 14:41 #10

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mikey mikey wrote:
wake_up_bomb wrote:
But I can't find any MSM coverage of this at all, despite the fact that numerous newspapers reported on the original vote being defeated.

I think I remember learning about it on RT.

But the whole story has been squashed in the MSM: back door legislation forced through. :mad:

It just means that employees will lose what little legal rights they have left. :suicide:

Brings back memories of how quietly Maggie Thatcher put through the fair rent act.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 14:43 #11

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mikey mikey wrote:
So if I can exchange rights for more shares, can I exchange shares for more rights?

No?

Thought not.

Obviousl con coming: company directors know that the company is going bust alla HMV and start offering emloyees to this. When they go into administration, the shares will be worth FA- and there will be no redundancy payments?

played

Exactly yep.
Even if thats not the case, how are you as an employee going to know how many shares are issued and your rights/legal obligations in owning those shares?
It doesn't seem to even specify what TYPE of shares lol....
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 14:46 #12

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It sure does. And the fact that this transaction only works one way (money for rights) proves it to be thesame old "tell Sid" and the subsequent "shares" bollocks of the Thatcher years. Who has the shares now?

The multinational Centrica
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 14:57 #13

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I would imagine the banks would deffo want to take advantage of converting redundancy pay into shares because their shares are obviously worth jack shit and they are obviously going to fire shitloads more staff yet.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 15:07 #14

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andyh wrote:
I would imagine the banks would deffo want to take advantage of converting redundancy pay into shares because their shares are obviously worth jack shit and they are obviously going to fire shitloads more staff yet.
I suspect this is completely correct. I don't think you'd see people being offered £2,000 in cash, for example.

In addition, shares are a terrible investment for the average person. If you get offered them for free, you should take them, but in terms of investing your money in them, you should only do this if (a) you're a trader that has an intimate knowledge of the market (even then you can get burnt quite easily), or (b) you have inside information (which is theoretically illegal). You need to know so much about the factors that underpin the stock market to invest successfully in this area, and even then the markets are hugely manipulated. You could end up giving your rights away for literally nothing.

See Apple shares for the last six months, par exemple:

uk.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=AAPL#symbol=AAPL;range=6m
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 18 Apr 2013 15:10 by wake_up_bomb.
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 16:31 #15

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It's quite interesting doesn't Mondragon operate in a similar way as an employee owned company?
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 17:10 #16

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Mike wrote:
It's quite interesting doesn't Mondragon operate in a similar way as an employee owned company?

Nice try.

Mondragon does not trade pensions/redundancies off for shares.
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 17:16 #17

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Mondragon also has something to teach other cooperatives in its approach to capital, always an issue for businesses not using equity-based capital markets. Employee members are required to make a financial investment in their business, typically of €14,000, which is automatically deducted from salary over the first three or five years of their membership. Profits paid across to members are also retained in the cooperative, being distributed only at retirement or if a member of staff leaves. Interest on members' capital is paid, however, when businesses are profitable.
www.senscot.net/view_art.php?viewid=12100
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 17:20 #18

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And?

The employee ultimately has shares or cash?

;)
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Sell Your Rights for Shares (Which you Probably don't Understand) 18 Apr 2013 20:55 #19

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oioioi wrote:
Mike wrote:
It's quite interesting doesn't Mondragon operate in a similar way as an employee owned company?

Nice try.

Mondragon does not trade pensions/redundancies off for shares.

Precisley. This false-equivilancy is ludicrous. I am led to believe that Mike is either using this ridiculous "parallel" as a means to discredit Mondragon. God forbid, it is backhanded apologetics for Gideon's plan to knobble workers' hard-won rights.

Marxist? :umm: :chin:
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