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TOPIC: The Post-Industrial Revolution

The Post-Industrial Revolution 09 Jun 2013 10:00 #1

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Someone asked me recently to explain the way that the socio-economic system has been planned, instigated and works today. You can go into inordinate depth on this subject, and this is quite vague and thematic rather than detailed and specific, but I thought people might like to read it. I didn't put too much thought into this, I just rattled it off in an email, so it's not my best writing.

For most of known human history, there has been a hierarchical structure to individual societies, which has bridged eras separated by centuries. This surely cannot be a coincidence, and even though maybe human-beings could be descended from apes, and this is the way that apes organise themselves in the wild, I do not believe hierarchy is part of some inherent human nature. Thus, the organisation of virtually every society and culture you care to name cannot be a coincidence.

By the time we reached the age of industrialisation, there was a relatively small cabal of people with common interests who had accrued great wealth and power. Because of their by now almost inbuilt nature of constantly looking into the future to see opportunities – not too hard an ability to envisage when once looks at a modern monolithic corporation such as Google – they could see that this technological revolution was going to offer them great opportunities. This era, for example, produced a unique human experience which we now completely take for granted, namely that for the first time ever human beings were transported without making a direct effort themselves, or using the naturally occurring elements of the earth (Stevenson’s Rocket). They were not alone in perceiving this opportunity / threat; see the Luddites, for example.

So I believe that even back then they already perceived the opportunity to create a society where every human-being worked for them for a pittance, while they did nothing, owned everything, and lived as Kings and Queens always have. But they knew of one problem from history. When the slaves realise that they’re slaves, they don’t like it too much. So their challenge was to create a completely hierarchical society – I’m not sure if at this stage the global nature of it would have been considered possible, but obviously as technology has developed it has become easier and easier to perceive of such a possibility. But then at the same time it’s worth remembering that there are massive empires that date back several millennia so I certainly believe it was thought of to be very much transnational and continental in scope – in which (a) people don’t know that they’re slaves, (b) people willingly go along with the fact that they’re slaves, and (c) people celebrate the fact that they’re slaves, and contribute to their own enslavement by either fiercely protecting or inadvertently contributing to the system that enslaves them.

So around this time you have the Industrial Revolution (circa 1760), the formation of the United States and Declaration of Independence (1776) and the Act of Union (1800) and formation of the British parliament (1801); the English parliament having developed in 1707 from the council that advised the English monarch in medieval times. Even though there are some noble ideas at the heart of the US Constitution and all that, I don’t believe it was ever intended to be democratic; as evidenced by the slaughter of the Native Americans, and so on.

So these are pretty significant events, and then in concurrence with that you have the formation of the Bank of England in 1694, and establishment of paper money, and I’m not sure of the precise date of this one, but the US paper dollar was established before the end of the 18th century. And I think already by that time this had been envisaged as the way to enslave people, to create a docile and obedient population without them understanding that they were enslaved. All the time they think they have a stake in the society because they can earn money, they feel independent, but in fact the more that this system becomes ingrained, the further away from independence the people are, and as it has turned out, the more money there is in circulation, the poorer people get. I don’t know if that last point was understood at that time, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if it was.

So I think in addition to that it has been seen over time that this works exceptionally well, that getting people to exchange their labour for beer tokens is extremely successful. And that once you do this, people demand a lot less rights, and a lot less say in their own existence and the decisions that govern their lives. Because they think that money governs their life. And to a degree it does. And the more that they think it does, the more that it genuinely does. And the more that it genuinely does, the less likely people are to demand a genuine stake in demanding a say in their own existence. And think about the parliaments that were set up at this time. It’s harder to go back and look at 18th century discourse today, and I’m sure it was a good deal more idealistic than in contemporary politics. But what’s the primary topic of discussion in politics, what’s the number one way that political parties attempt to appeal to the common man or woman? Money, money, money. That’s all they talk about. What things cost, what things will save, what things are worth, how ‘hard working families’ deserve more. So obviously the parliament, if you look at the roots of it, was never intended to be democratic, that’s quite clear. But I also believe this system was specifically brought in to convince people that what they needed was representation from people working for them to achieve better economic conditions for them. By today, that notion has been completely absorbed by 99% of the population, at least.

So once you’ve reached that point, you’re halfway there. You’ve already effectively enslaved humanity because they now think that they’re free, you have a ‘free market’, you can exchange your labour at a rate that is agreed by you with the ‘free market’, you have ‘rights’ under labour laws, agreed by the parliaments who are your ‘democratic representatives’. In short, already by the end of the 18th century the idea of labour either (a) being focused on improving your own lot and life, and being centred around your own home and family, (b) being linked to a certain guaranteed standard of living rather than a negotiable amount of paper money which fluctuates in value relative to things that you need to buy, was already disappearing from society. These are very basic concepts that if you stop someone today and ask them about, some 200 years later, they have just disappeared from mainstream society completely as a relevant idea or concept. Not only do people not demand them, not only do people not understand them, but they are incomprehensible to the average person.

Now by this point, the cabal of banking-industrialists see that this system is working pretty well. So the 20th century in particular has been focused on the next stage, which is getting people to exchange the beer tokens that you issued them, for stuff that you made, that doesn’t improve their situation in life in the slightest. And as technology and understanding of the human psyche has improved, increasingly the desires to consume are put there subliminally and subconsciously via Pavlovian techniques, while the subjects believe that the drive to consume is in fact driven by their own conscious and rational thought. And as the move from a ‘needs’ to a ‘desires’ culture is achieved, you also train people to constantly want more, more, more. And then you build in planned obsolescence as well, so that the crap that they want to buy either breaks prematurely, or becomes useless after a relatively short period of time – see mobile phones, computers; basically any contemporary technology. And you make the slaves make the stuff for you, you pay them fuck all to do it, you walk away with levels of wealth from it that are unimaginable to them, and then they pay their paltry wages back to you to buy the stuff that they made. And wages constantly decline relative to the cost of living, and this is all due to ‘competition’. But there are less and less companies actually making anything, and it gets harder and harder to compete virtually by the year.

And this is before you go into all of the actual intricacies of the economic system itself, the fraud that takes place on the stock exchange, fractional reserve (or no fractional reserve in the case of the UK) banking, the tax burden on the individual versus the corporate entity, the breakdown of any form of competition and semblance of a ‘free market’, and all the rest of it.

So my belief is that today every social issue that we see discussed is either intended to cement this perfect neo-feudal society that has been steadily created, that was envisaged centuries ago, or else is defined by it. It impacts upon every area of our lives, every day, and every element of our decision making every day. It completely defines social issues. And I believe it was always intended to be so, and the reason for this is not only because it gives inordinate power and control to a handful of people, but, crucially, unlike any other system of slavery that has ever existed, the majority of people don’t know that they’re slaves, they don’t realise how badly they’re getting fucked. And even if they do get a bit uppity, what’s the solution? Yes, we’re terribly sorry, what we need to do is improve your economic circumstances...and you will see that even with something relatively radical like Occupy Wall Street this is actually what is requested as well.

So if we’re ever going to get back on an even keel, and it’s going to take some doing, the number one thing that people have to understand IMHO is that the economic system is designed to enslave people, money itself is designed to enslave people, and even if you have a solid monetary system, which we don’t, you can’t base a world of finite resources on the need and desire to consume more and more and more each year, it’s fucking mental.

Of course, the people that have instigated this system, and those that have subsequently benefited from it, have long since realised this, which is why they’re now bringing ‘austerity’ into the equation. This is just the start. What happened in Cyprus is just the beginning; it just sets the precedent for what is coming. Because the elite, the 0.1%, and the real elite which is just a handful of people that control what I call the ‘Bank for International Settlements System’, aren’t ready to give up their lifestyles. That’s why they don’t want us breeding any more. That’s why people are dropping dead of cancer right, left and centre. They want us driven down to a subsistence level so that they can enjoy the spoils of the system that humanity inadvertently built for them, while there are still enough resources left to do so.
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Last Edit: 09 Jun 2013 10:46 by wake_up_bomb.
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The Post-Industrial Revolution 09 Jun 2013 11:44 #2

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Thats dangerous talk wub :D

Its true that the socio economic system not only does all the above but that it is resilient, by that I mean that you can have revolutions here and there but that overall the same situation will remain.

The only way for things to truly 'change' is for a global sea shift in consciousness along the lines of what Jacques Fresco has mentioned.
This is truly an evolutionary concept though, not revolutionary. Revolutions throughout history have never achieved 'change' that has made a dent on the socio-economic system. The Russians for example killed the royal family but today they have oligarchs running that country and the period in between was full of misery.

The only place where the system has taken a hit is in Mondragon as that had the people getting direct democracy BOTH in the workplace and in their community, they have also learned to have some control over the flow of money, recycling it for their common benefit.

Mondragon is the best you can expect from a system involving money and it is ridiculously difficult to achieve without some heavy initial investment from very co-operative and intelligent people. The game is obviously rigged, corporations have better treatment under law than human beings and they pay far less taxation as a percentage than human beings do.

We know all this to be perfectly true, it is NOT a conspiracy theory, it is FACT.

The best way to rob a bank is to own it. This is ofc complete madness, people who continue to have faith in this 'system' sicken me with their ignorance. History is replete with examples of how representative democracy screws people over again and again, the representation is for the wealthy, it always has been.

The only way to stop this shit is to abandon the monetary system completely, to abandon authoritarianism and embrace common sense-ism ;)

As for how this is going to come about I have no idea, in fact I doubt it will come about for a very long time, if at all.
I don't expect the likes of alex jones or david icke to make a shite of difference.

As long as the monetary system remains then the big picture will remain the same, you could for example rid society completely of criminal gangs and drug dealers etc, you would merely see someone else take their place, most likely the police would themselves become the new gangs with protection rackets. Money makes it happen, where theres a hole to be filled you'll quickly find someone with a pile of dirt to chuck in it.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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The Post-Industrial Revolution 09 Jun 2013 11:46 #3

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Inclosure Acts

The Inclosure or Enclosure Acts were a series of United Kingdom Acts of Parliament which enclosed open fields and common land in the country. They removed previously existing rights of local people to carry out activities in these areas, such as cultivation, cutting hay, grazing animals,using other resources such as small timber, fish, and turf or sometimes even living on the land. "Inclosure" is an old or formal spelling of the word now more usually spelled "enclosure": both spellings are pronounced /ɨŋˈkloʊʒər/.

Inclosure Acts for small areas had been passed sporadically since the 12th century but the majority were passed between 1750 and 1860. Much larger areas were also enclosed during this time and in 1801 the Inclosure (Consolidation) Act was passed to tidy up previous acts. In 1845 another General Inclosure Act allowed for the appointment of Inclosure Commissioners who could enclose land without submitting a request to Parliament.

Under this process there were over 5,000 individual Inclosure Acts and 21% of land in England was enclosed, amounting to nearly 11,000 square miles (28,000 km2)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclosure_Acts
Fourteen Million Acres Enclosed

Early in the 18th century there begins the great series of private acts of enclosure, of which 4,000 in all, covering some 7,000,000 acres were passed before the General Enclosure Act of 1845. During the same period it is probable that about the same area was enclosed without application to Parliament.

Right through the period we have now under consideration, viz., from 1660 to 1845, a three-fold policy with regard to land was being steadily pressed forward by the landowning class. One aspect of this policy was the improvement of estates and the advancement of agriculture.

High Rents and Dependent Workers

Closely connected with this part of the triple policy pursued was the movement of enclosure, and this again was equally closely connected with the war of extermination waged against the owner of small portions of land or common rights and even against the small tenant. A typical progressive landlord of the day desired to make his estate a model of good farming. He wanted his lands to be let to enterprising tenants, each occupying a compact farm surrounding its own farm-house, and each free, without any shackling by ancient village customs to develop the most profitable agricultural methods.

He also wanted an increase of rent. His favourite author, Arthur Young, told him it was his duty to demand high rents, as low rents were only an encouragement to slovenly farming. Moreover, the current political theory held that the prosperity of the State was best judged by the rental of land, because this represented the net profit over and above that required for the subsistence of the cultivators, and this net profit was the ultimate taxable fund on which armies and navies could be maintained. Lastly, the typical landlord desired authority. He wanted no small independent freeholders with bits of land in the midst of his estate, or in possession of cottages or cultivated patches won out of the waste, entitled to keep cows on the open commons, and to go here and there to exercise their right of taking fuel, with a chance, perhaps, of taking a hare or a pheasant as well.

Usurpation by Lords of the Manor

In the 18th century the lord of the manor, or the principal owner of land, was almost invariably the mover for enclosure, and the person who chiefly profited by it. In a proportion of cases which was probably large, but how large it is impossible to say, the principal landowner effected enclosure by first of all making himself the sole proprietor. The well-known agricultural writer, William Marshall, records an instance in which this was done, in his opinion, by an equitable bargain, but he describes this as a notable exception to the general rule that enclosure was effected by oppression or underhand dealing. A device frequently used was that of inducing copyholders to allow their copyholds to be converted into leaseholds. When the leases ran out, the lord of the manor could deal with the land as he chose.

Enrichment and Bankruptcy

Where the minor owners were too numerous, or too stubborn, or too firmly established, to be got rid of by purchase, resort was made to private acts of enclosure. This had the effect of getting rid of a certain number of the small owners and of disentangling the properties of the remainder from those of the lord of the manor.

The effect of enclosure varied from village to village and from district to district. But we can make a general statment as to the way in which the fortunes of different classes of people were affected. The chief landowners, as I have said above, were the biggest gainers, but even with them the gain was uncertain, In some cases seven-fold rents were obtained. The Board of Agriculture's reporter for Somerset tells us that the enclosers of Sedgmoor made a net profit of £365,373 15s 4d. There were cases where the increase of rental scarcely sufficed for a considerable period afterwards, to pay interest on the money expended in satisfying the rapacious parliamentary agents, paying the Commissioners, and erecting the new hedges. Enclosure was a gamble, but a most satisfactory gamble, offering brilliant prizes to landlords. The tithe owners generally gained in a similar proportion to the large landlord.

There was a general tendency for lands which had previously been arable to be turned into pasture on enclosure, because, up to nearly the end of the century, pasture was more profitable. On the other hand, land which had previously been common pasture had to be ploughed for some years in succession, in order to effect such an improvement in it as would enable it to yield a higher rental. The farmer in either case had to revolutionise his methods. He might fail either through inadequate capital or inadequate knowledge. If he went bankrupt there were plenty more tenants dispossessed by the process of enclosure in neighbouring villages eager to take his place. The majority of the small tenant farmers had to choose between migrating elsewhere, or becoming landless labourers.

How the Cottagers Fared

But the mere fact that enclosure was carried out by an Act was an indication that there was a body of freeholders or copyholders possessed of land or cottages, or rights of common. How did these fare? On this point we have adequate and authoritative evidence from contemporary advocates of enclosure. Arthur Young, for example, who spent a great part of his life in advocating enclosure and in endeavouring to get general Enclosure Acts of as effective and comprehensive a type as possible passed, declared "That by nineteen Enclosure Acts out of twenty the poor are injured."

In the first place, many of the poor cottagers who kept a cow or a few geese on the common, and who obtained their whole supply of fuel from it, were only tenants of the cottages which entitled them to these privileges. When enclosure took place the owner of such cottages obtained an allotment of land in compensation for the extinction of those common rights. The tenant got nothing. Nor does it appear that the rent of the cottages was reduced in consequence. On the other hand, it was admitted on all sides that the loss, particularly of the provision of fuel, caused very great hardship, and there were even some cases in which provision was made in Enclosure Acts for a few acres of moor to be reserved to poor cottagers to supply them with fuel.

But supposing the cottager was the owner of his cottage, he then had to produce documentary evidence that he was legally entitled to the exercise of rights of common. The Board of Agriculture, in its general report on enclosures, has handed down the name of one Commissioner who was accustomed to give compensation where cottagers proved that they had been in the actual possession of common rights, without requiring documentary evidence of their title. But the report clearly gives it to be understood that he was an exception - perhaps the only exception - to the general rule. Except in very rare instances, without documentary evidence the small common-right owner lost his rights without compensation. Such cases must have been very numerous.

"Give us Back our Commons"

Yet again we must notice the change that had taken place in consequence of enclosure in the whole social structure in the village. With all its disadvantages, the distribution of holdings in scattered strips in the open fields had this one merit: it gave a certain elasticity to the size of the holding. It was easy for a labourer to rent two or three acre or half-acre strips, and gradually increase the size of his holding as his family grew in numbers. The labourer who was entirely landless was comparatively a rarity, and between him and the farmer there was a gradation of men who divided their time in varying proportions between work for hire and work for themselves. But after enclosure, with the whole of the land divided out into large compact and defined farms, there was nothing left for the small holder. He had to become a labourer pure and simple; and henceforward there was a gulf between the labourer and the farmer, very difficult for the former to cross, and very painful for the latter.

Out of the 4,000 Enclosure Acts, almost exactly two-thirds were Acts of the character just described. The remaining third were Acts for the enclosure of commons situated in districts where the cultivated land had been previously enclosed. With respect to the effect of enclosure upon the fortunes of the cottagers who had utilised such commons the above statement applies without modification. The whole process of enclosure was deeply resented by the poor rural population. In the 19th century, when the labourers were reproached with pauperisation, their reply was: "Give us back our commons and you can keep your poor relief."

What was not Neccessary

It is often asserted that enclosure was an economic necessity. It is perfectly true that there was an economic necessity that the traditional methods of common field cultivation should be altered, and that the easiest, and, so far as the foremost agriculturalists of the day could see, the most effective method of improving agriculture was by superseding collective ownership by individual ownership, and replacing methods of cultivation which demanded co-operation by individual enterprise. But it was in no sense an economic necessity that this change should be carried through in such a way as to impoverish the poor while enriching the wealthy, or to convert the peasant into a despairing, crushed, and dependent labourer.

Progressive Impoverishment

Simultaneously with the rapid increase of enclosure by Act of Parliament during the second half of the 18th century, there came a progressive impoverishment of the rural labourer, of which enclosure was not the only cause. Soon after 1760 the celebrated series of inventions in spinning revolutionised the domestic economy of the labourer's cottage. Before the inventions of Crompton, Hargeaves and Arkwright made spinning a machine industry, it was an important subsidiary occupation carried on in innumerable cottage homes by the wives and children of the rural labourers.

Even as late as 1793 the Rutlandshire magistrates passed a resolution directing that no outdoor relief should be given to a labourer with a family, unless his children attained certain standards of competence in spinning in accordance with their ages. The revolution in spinning deprived agricultural labourers of this part of their subsistence at the very time when enclosure was making them more dependent on wages and diminishing the demand for agricultural labour. Bad harvests also were more numerous in the latter half of the 18th century, while finally the great war with the French Republic and Napoleon covered the whole period from 1796 to 1815 driving food prices to famine levels.

Mr and Mrs Hammond* have vividly portrayed the situation of the rural labourer and the choice of policies which faced the English Government at the outbreak of the war. In those few spots where they had sufficient spirit left to make their wants known the labourers demanded that wages should rise in proportion to the rise in the cost of the bare necessities of life. There was not the remotest chance of this demand being conceded.
* Hammond, J.L. and B. The Village Labourer, 1760-1832, The Town Labourer, 1760-1832, The Skilled Labourer, 1760-1832

The Speenhamland Policy

Efforts were made to induce the labourer to subsist upon some cheaper fare than the wheaten bread and occasional glass of small beer or thin cyder to which he had become accustomed, and to a considerable extent potatoes began to take the place of bread, particularly in the dietary of children. But in the end reliance was placed upon the Speenhamland policy, the policy of laying down the minimum of subsistence for the agricultural labourer, determined by the price of bread and the numbers of his family, and bringing up his wage to its minimum level by grants from the poor rates. Some way had to be found of avoiding at once widespread famine and bloody revolution. From these perils the Speenhamland policy saved the country, but at a terrible cost.

Wages Subsidised from Local Taxation

The Speenhamland policy was a direct temptation to farmers to reduce wages arbitrarily, in order to throw the cost of working their farms in part upon the ratepayers, including the surviving small holders, who did not employ hired labour. It took away the incentive to exertion and undermined industrial discipline, since the labourer was as well off when he was unemployed as when he was working.

In combination with the bastardy laws, it stimulated illegitimate births to such an extent that, according to reports of the Poor Law Commission, great numbers of young women of the agricultural labour class could only hope to become wives by first becoming mothers.

It must, however, be remembered that what made the Speenhamland policy of giving a bare subsistence to the unemployed labourer and his dependents so disastrous, was the fact that the land policy pursued by the governing class during the preceding century, and the other causes explained above, had reduced the wages of the man in work to even less than a bare subsistence for a family.

The reform of the Poor Law in 1834, which destroyed the autonomy of the parishes in the matter of poor relief, grouped them together in unions, and brought every Board of Guardians and every Poor Law official under the control of a Board of three Commissioners, had for its main object the reversal of the Speenhamland policy. The Commissioners and the theorists endeavoured to cure pauperism by penalising the applicant for poor relief.

Making Docile Labourers

It was afterwards claimied that this policy of repression was a brilliant success; that labourers ceased to riot and became docile, eager to get and to keep their jobs, and that pauperism steadily diminished from decade to decade. But the immediate effect was to aggravate the under-feeding of the working population, and had it not been for a series of remarkable industrial developments, the 1834 policy could scarcely have been persisted in. It would have had to be abandoned amid general execration.

The position of the agricultural labourer in the 20th century remains that of a man possessed of varied and most valuable forms of skill, who yet is ranked among the unskilled labourers, and receives a remuneration even lower than that of the generality of them. Of all workers he has least chance of a satisfactory career in his own country and his own craft, He is the man most essential to the well-being of the community, yet he shares in the most niggardly fashion in that well-being; he is the man to whom a manly independence of thought, speech and action is made by society most difficult and most dangerous.

When the Landowners were Counted

The great enquiry of 1874-5 (the "New Doomsday") into land-ownership shows that the land of England and Wales, exclusive of London, of roads, Crown woods, wastes, commons, etc., and house and garden properties of less than 1 acre, amounted to 32,862,343 acres, and was owned by 269,547 persons. * ref If properties of less than 10 acres are omitted, there remain 32,383,664 acres, owned by only 147,564 persons. Slightly more than 2,000 persons owned half the agricultural land of the country.

Since then the agricultural labourer has been enfranchised. His economic emancipation must, sooner or later, follow his political emancipation. But, as yet, little has been done to efface the deep impress made alike upon the land system and the workers on the land by two hundred years of rule by the British landed aristocracy.
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The Post-Industrial Revolution 09 Jun 2013 12:12 #4

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Good call, the above is all central to the process as well. Probably lots of other things as well. There's so much co-ordination around that period that I find it impossible to believe that it was a coincidence. Especially when you can read Carroll Quigley's book, and he names names and goes into innate detail about exactly who did it, how they did it, and what they wanted. And then you find yourself today in the exact, literally exact, economic system that Quigley stated that they wanted, and all the names and institutions that he named are at the top of it.
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The Post-Industrial Revolution 09 Jun 2013 12:22 #5

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andyh wrote:
Its true that the socio economic system not only does all the above but that it is resilient, by that I mean that you can have revolutions here and there but that overall the same situation will remain.
Actually, one of the most depressing things to observe is that the Arab Spring has made absolutely no difference whatsoever to the appalling conditions that people live in within those countries, or even the way that they're run.

I do think there is a growing awareness of the level of corruption that has and is taking place, and how the whole system is completely fixed. If you went back ten years, when I used to comment on the Guardian’s CIF site, my posts would usually be ignored, and occasionally vigorously opposed. Even a few years ago, I probably got minimal response or support. Today when I occasionally post on there, my posts will be perpetually among the top-rated. And what I'm saying is "there is no democracy, there is no choice, you live in a corporate fascist state, the parameters of your existence are defined by banks and corporations that are in cahoots with one another". And a certain tranche of people now understand this intellectually. I know that Charlie Skelton has said when he first wrote about Bilderberg in The Guardian he used to get “tin-foil hat, you’re crazy” abuse, whereas now he receives almost blanket support. So I do think there’s a change, but as you rightly said, this system is extremely resilient.

Whether this will be enough to really change anything in a society that is largely completely satisfied with living in a state of consumerism, until those individuals that are enamoured with it perceive that they can’t buy as much stuff as they want to, remains to be seen. Sooner or later we’re going to see bail ins in the UK, so it will be fascinating to see how people respond.
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The Post-Industrial Revolution 09 Jun 2013 12:34 #6

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
andyh wrote:
Its true that the socio economic system not only does all the above but that it is resilient, by that I mean that you can have revolutions here and there but that overall the same situation will remain.
Actually, one of the most depressing things to observe is that the Arab Spring has made absolutely no difference whatsoever to the appalling conditions that people live in within those countries, or even the way that they're run.

I do think there is a growing awareness of the level of corruption that has and is taking place, and how the whole system is completely fixed. If you went back ten years, when I used to comment on the Guardian’s CIF site, my posts would usually be ignored, and occasionally vigorously opposed. Even a few years ago, I probably got minimal response or support. Today when I occasionally post on there, my posts will be perpetually among the top-rated. And what I'm saying is "there is no democracy, there is no choice, you live in a corporate fascist state, the parameters of your existence are defined by banks and corporations that are in cahoots with one another". And a certain tranche of people now understand this intellectually. I know that Charlie Skelton has said when he first wrote about Bilderberg in The Guardian he used to get “tin-foil hat, you’re crazy” abuse, whereas now he receives almost blanket support. So I do think there’s a change, but as you rightly said, this system is extremely resilient.

Whether this will be enough to really change anything in a society that is largely completely satisfied with living in a state of consumerism, until those individuals that are enamoured with it perceive that they can’t buy as much stuff as they want to, remains to be seen. Sooner or later we’re going to see bail ins in the UK, so it will be fascinating to see how people respond.

It depends on how much information gets out there (and the quality of it) and the ability of the people who get to see it to digest it.
Then enough of those people to co-operate in the right way to make substantial change.

I wince at the thought of bail-ins but its going to happen sooner or later, perhaps Ireland,Portugal,Spain or one of the eastern EU states will see some banking trouble and it will definitely snowball at that point. Cyprus was difficult enough to contain imho.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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