Reptired wrote:
The supposed principle behind it is that the people in govt would never be psychos/sociopaths.
We are ofc realising slowly thats not the case at all, lol.
You know it ofc Rep and fast enough too along with the rest on this forum but its a tiny few compared to masses who are still sleepwalking IMHO.

andyh wrote:
Yeah, as far as I can see they are all pretty much identical, a small group claim that they must control everything and own everyone else for the benefit of their victims.

"Lenin sensed this and described “socialism” as “nothing but state capitalist monopoly made to benefit the whole people."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism#cite_note-25

andyh wrote:
I think for most people it's a psychological/emotional issue rather than an intellectual issue or one of absence of information.
Generally speaking the unilateral and contradictory violence that the state uses is first experienced in the family, and that needs to be dealt with first, it's going to be a long road. The communication technologies that exist now do provide for a much more rapid transfer of information once that first step is made and that could be an extremely powerful catalyst for good.

Reptired wrote:
lol hilarious what they come up with, Guevarista would've scared the crap out of you on here, he did me with his union bollocks and commie rants, I thought he was going to have us all dress up in woolen greens at one point lol.

andyh wrote:
I have sworn an oath not to try and engage in discussion with commies, I had a long running "debate" with one of The Venus Project commies over at tracksuitjesusforums . Never again. It did provide some hilarity but wasn't worth the frustration.

Unions are fine though, probably a good thing, once they're voluntary

Reptired wrote:
Yessss, exactly. The family unit is the bedrock of society, you have that down pat.
The both parents working with child minders or just no kids at all, 'childless families' has become common place, along with single parent families ofc.
Its not like they didn't exist in the past but the old model of man bringing home the bacon and woman working the home has been truly sidelined now.
I'm an exception to the rule myself but I have to earn huge amounts of money to do it compared to many others. The old family model is now thoroughly 'middle-middle' class if you see what I mean.

Ironically enough some of the upper-middle and upwards are destroying their own families by sending their kids off to boarding schools.
Perhaps they think it helps the kids by making them tough and selfish, lol...... I guess they see compassion and empathy as weakness.

Reptired wrote:
Well a union as such cannot exist without elected reps and subscription payments, its just another racket really.
Mondragon has no union because everybody is the union. It has no donations other than initial share purchase and no reps because everyone has votes on decisions about the groups future.

Mondragon has its own shops, schools, uni, housing, etc etc if you don't know about it its well worth looking in to.
Not as a perfect exact example to copy but as something to be inspired by is all.

andyh wrote:
Yeah, I don't think it's a "class" thing, humanity has been under subjugation for so long now I suppose you could almost be forgiven for confusing child abuse with human nature. As for the people running things I'm pretty sure Sociopathy is seen as a positive attribute, in a violent hierarchical statist system it's an incomparable adaptive advantage. I'm not a big believer in genetic determinism so I have to think that this is induced (secondary) Sociopathy. I was just listening to a recent podcast from freedomainradio.com where some young woman talking about her parents completely neglecting her as a child and taking pleasure in her problems, they were executives for The World Bank, mates with H Clinton.

andyh wrote:
At it's simplest a union is just a group acting in the best interests if the individuals.
So, the complete opposite of what unions are in the real world lol.

Reptired wrote:
Awww you missed Mike. I have a similar oath. It is to tell wingnuts to fuck off. Those include people that subscribe to the following: American Exceptionalism, Ayn Rand, Nazism, neo-conservatism, Tory Party Politics, White Supremacism/Separatism and fundamentalist religions.
Reptired wrote:
Is the Venus Project communism in the same way that the NHS is socialism?

mikey mikey wrote:
Left, right, left, right....... Onward marches the Great Bird of Death.
Reptired wrote: [/quote]
Is the Venus Project communism in the same way that the NHS is socialism?[/quote]

VP would probably end up in more unnecessary deaths.
Equality care pathway anyone?

Reptired wrote:
Is that the same as Palin's stories of Death Panels?

mikey mikey wrote:
I'm not familiar with Palin, I was referring to the NHS practise of murdering sick, vulnerable and elderly people in their care.
Liverpool care pathway. If you live in the UK and you're not nervous, you're an idiot quite frankly.

Full blown communism of course commits Democide at a much more prolific rate, I dread to see the Oligarch's would do with a more technologically efficient version of Communism, like The Venus Project.

Reptired wrote: Is the Venus Project communism in the same way that the NHS is socialism?[/quote]

VP would probably end up in more unnecessary deaths.
Equality care pathway anyone?
[/quote]

No idea what you're on about there lol.
The venus project is not communism because
a) Its not authoritarian
b) It has no money.

The closest word you could use to describe it is a techno-switzerland lol.

It has features of direct democracy, free choice work and learning and leisure and no monetary system.
The idea is certainly something to aspire to, I have no objection to it really apart from the building designs but then again thats only a suggestion rather than some kind of mandatory stipulation, indeed it would be impossible to move towards such a scenario without making use of whats already in place anyway and again the only societal system which exists that could work towards a world without money is anarcho-syndicalism because people would learn to co-operate on a level that approaches being possible to consider something like TVP.

Basically if you object to TVP then you actually support the present system which is akin to saying you're a bit thick tbh...

andyh wrote:
a) Any of the advocates of VP I have spoken to, when pushed have admitted that they're willing to use violence and expect it to come through a violent marxist type revolution, they don't want to speak about that up front obviously. The primary concern of these people is something along the lines of "income/resource equality". EVERYTHING comes after that, including human life.

If it's voluntary, then it's not communism. Perhaps it was just the individuals I came across. It looks nightmarish to me, if you find some of the original plans that The Bolsheviks had drawn up for their Utopian Cities propaganda they're eerily like Frescoes. There is no more efficient way of determining efficient use of resources than free monetary systems, Communist Russia is the prime example of this, the problem wasn't that they were using paper to make their calculations.

b) Right, they make money irrelevant/illegal. Money in Statist systems us used as a proxy for control of resources, it's the method , not the goal. VP allows for a more direct and central control of the resources bypassing the need for money. The goal of communism is met more efficiently.

c) The next argument you will here is usually, "but nobody controls the resources, it's allocated by computer".
Of course that's another proxy as computers do not program themselves.

TVP is just a technological upgrade on what is already in place, just like parliamentary democracy was an upgrade on monarchy or feudalism.

*I just want to reiterate, if I am incorrect , and it is voluntary, then I have absolutely zero issue with it.*

BTW Fresco has close ties to the UN.
He seems to like posing with royalty and the like.

Jack_Fresco_and_Gorbachev.

Fresco with Princess Beatrix at 10th anniversary of UNCED's Earth Charter.

It's the same pattern over and over and over.

"George Hunt was present at the 'Fourth World Wilderness Congress' (he explains what that means later in the video) and noticed that it had very little to do with the conventional environment movement and was surprised to see people like Maurice Strong, Edmund de Rothschild (Pilgrims Society), David Rockefeller (Pilgrims Society), and James A. Baker (Pilgrims Society; Cap & Gown; trustee American Institute for Contemporary German Studies; Atlantic Council of the United States; National Security Planning Group; Bohemian Grove; CFR; Carlyle; advisor George W. Bush in his 2000 election)."I suggest therefore that this be sold not through a democratic process - that would take too long and devour far too much of the funds - to educate the cannon fodder, unfortunately, that populates the earth." (David Lang, a Montreal International Banker)."

https://archive.org/details/Unced1992GeorgeHunt

"The idea of the Earth Charter originated in 1987, when the United Nations World Commission on Environment and Development called for a new charter to guide the transition to sustainable development. In 1992, the need for a charter was urged by then-Secretary General Boutros Boutros-Ghali at the Rio de Janeiro Earth Summit, but the time for such a declaration was not believed to be right. The Rio Declaration became the statement of the achievable consensus at that time. In 1994, Maurice Strong (Chairman of the Earth Summit) and Mikhail Gorbachev, working through organizations they each founded (the Earth Council and Green Cross International respectively), restarted the Earth Charter as a civil society initiative, with the help of the government of the Netherlands.[2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Charter

What advocates have you spoken to?

a)For starters they haven't a clue what its all about. It cannot happen by flicking a light switch or expecting it to be enforced somehow, the very thought is absolutely hilarious and the very opposite of what Fresco has said himself its all meant to be about!
As for resources how do you expect to be able to run a system without money (resource based economy) that doesn't take account of resources instead? Why would you suddenly instantly enforce such a situation? Where does it say on TVP site such a thing must be done?
Again thats the total opposite of what has been said which is a gradual progression towards such an ideal future society without money, you cannot expect to enforce such an intelligent and decent society, you can only educate towards it.

b) The aim is to take account of resources and make sensible use of them without profit motive, in such a scenario the planet can easily comfortably accomodate huge vast populations by making efficient use of resources. When everything is plentiful then profit is pointless, so again the aim is to gradually educate towards such a scenario not to instantly throw a light switch and enforce it somehow, utter madness lol.
A simple example is geothermal energy which can easily provide several orders of magnitude larger than the entire world production of power at present...FOR PROFIT AND POLLUTING.

c) Again you have clearly not paid any attention to TVP because resources are NOT allocated by computer, the computers would merely SHOW the resources available and the possible options to make use of the resources, the PEOPLE would choose what to do via sirect democracy, again if you are against that then you are for the current statist system or somalia, there is nothing else nor will there be anything else because negative people like yourself make kneejerk ill-informed assumptions about anything positive thats put forward.
You've clearly not read much about Fresco and/or paid far too much attention to false information bandied about by the likes of Alex Jones who are basically full of shit and in it for profit.

As for a technological upgrade on what we have today you are basically living through it right now, the next step is a 100% cashless economy with chip implants then brain implants then a move towards global corporate governance with every man for himself and a branching of the human race with an elite of expensive un-restricted powerful implants , a middle class of somewhat restricted implants and an underclass of sub-humans who do not get chipped and are never employed, destined to survive in the wild as zoo specimens.

TVP is not merely a technological upgrade it is a societal upgrade because it abandons the paradigm that has persisted as regards money, class, education, roles in society, all of that goes out the window along with the possibility for a few to control the many as some serious effort and brains would have to go into achieving that, whereas the situation today allows anyone with serious money to control many aspects of life on this planet with little effort or brains involved.

Never look at TVP as being any kind of 'ism' it is merely an ideal to work towards, nothing else. Its not something that can be enforced nor is it something that can be managed with the flick of a switch, to suggest such a thing is the height of idiocy and clearly anyone who suggested it had nothing to do with TVP.

EDIT: Seeing as the above post has been edited, YES fresco has tirelessly tried to get involved with govt and educating leaders to see the positive aspects of it to little avail by the way, obviously because politicians are hardly going to give up what they have which is position in society and this artificial 'importance' which they value so much.

People on the internet.

I wouldn’t, you run a system by controlling the resources, Monetary Monopoly is only one method of doing this.


Unless the people who control the resources/accounting software decide to say there are too many people. Political ideologies are far more dangerous than profit motive as history shows. DD doesn't protect from this.

Somalia is not a voluntary society, you’re creating a false dilemma there. Democracy is one group of people dominating another through force so even if it was implemented through DD it’s effectively the same thing. 30 Rapists on a 52 seater bus = rape is good. No.

I’ll make up my own mind on that, thanks.

I cannot see some random guy trying to make the world a better place getting invited to these events to share his ideas for helping humanity with these"leaders".

I am very familiar with the Liverpool Care Pathway, but I see that it can be used to attack the NHS, when in actual fact it was a result of backdoor privatisation.

The euthanasia is part of the plan to rob the people of health care by the back door while smearing the reputation of the NHS.

And for most of the year I live in Italy which by and large has excellent healthcare, but yeah, I keep an eye on the US inspired attack on the NHS by Tory cunts.

Anyway, as andyh rightly pointed out, Liverpool Pathway thing has nothing to do TVP and neither has communism.

He's a commie and she's a commie and anti health care stories, eh? Hmmm

Reptired wrote:
Have you any idea how large that number would have to be, how many years it would take to reach that number and how advanced technology would be then and be able to either handle a larger number and/or be able to move people off planet?
Are you also aware that according to the UN's own demographics we are heading for population peak in 2045 and thereafter population DECLINE?

NOWHERE is voluntary lol, you are born into a state that forces a birth certificate on you. If you want false dilemma try dragging rape into a conversation about a society run by direct democracy, do they all rape people in Switzerland? Nope. Does the quality of life there piss on the UK from a great height? Yep.
End of story.
It is a BETTER situation unless you have some utopian ideal in plan for us all lol.....

Yeah you obviously have, its obviously communism without money and without the peoples liberation army, kommie bureau and KGB lol.
Its a totally different definition of what communism actually is currently but don't let that stop you right?

If you keep moving the target long enough you'll eventually call Sweden communist and Russia capitalist along with China and lets face it, you'd actually be accurate enough in the details but can anyone really do such a thing or for that matter want to?


He wasn't 'invited', he has attended many publicly open events which anyone else can do too were they bothered to get involved.
Ireland and Iceland have recently had many ordinary people getting involved with work on their constitution, many of them know it is basically futile but none the less they get involved and try to make a difference regardless. Personally I praise them for giving it a go, just as I praise Fresco for trying to educate people that there are alternatives to the paradigm.
he has not said everything has to be exactly the way he envisions it, its up to bright people to pick up the baton and work with it.
IMHO the only way it'll make progress is by demonstrating its viability scientifically which will mean some volunteers and time and resources to get put into it and its inevitably going to actually take money to try this experiment first just as money is spent experimenting to see how humans could go to Mars. This is what humans do generally, they reach out, aspire, explore, push their limits....well some do, the rest follow eventually. Mondragon itself is a long term experiment and it has worked, there is undeniable in your face evidence there of an alternative system that knocks seven bells of shit out of anything else we have come up with so far and here we are not doing anything about it

mikey mikey wrote:
If you want euthanasia then simply pull the plug on all the welfare system, you'll get it then lol.
The rioting chavs would help with the initial culling then the army then perhaps the infrastructure would fail.