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TOPIC: No-one should ever work! Fuck work!

No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:20 #181

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andyh wrote:

Now tell me again how this is communist?

Ignore Mike. ;)
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:22 #182

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Space Bandit wrote:
andyh wrote:

Any of you?

Yes, obviously. :)
I watched the docu a couple of years ago.
It's not the be all & end all but it's certainly better than what we've got.

Exactly, and anyone who has watched it would know its not communism, in facts its libertarian socialism which is making the most of both self employed libertarian values AND making the most of that new found wealth for the betterment of every VOLUNTARY participant.

Isn't that the kind of world 'we' intend when we talk about money and work?
Being able to have a say in our future and wealth?
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:23 #183

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andyh wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
......

Anarcho-syndicalism is not a communist barter system barnfish......

Read the history of anarcho-syndicalism and you will see its origins are from worker empowerment theories such as Marxism in what can be broadly described as communistic. If you abolish money you are only left with barter.

So workers having more pay, control over their work and owning co-op banks is communist but having a co-op bank account on its own is good.

Sigh. Worker owned and cooperative institutions came from the same set of theories that resulted in failed communism. That does not mean other forms of worker cooperatives are fails.
Go watch the mondragon video, you'll find it far far removed from any chairman mao bollocks.
Mondragon exists now today in Spain and has been running successfully for donkeys years.
They are self employed...thats hardly marxist is it?
Go ahead and try for an hour to put aside your emotional biased bullshit and educate yourself.

You are making the incorrect assumption that I do not know what I am talking about. I am all for workers cooperatives and come from the home of such.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Lanark

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenwick_Weavers%27_Society

My objection is when such are taken over by ideologists and are then corrupted. Have you read Animal Farm?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:24 #184

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Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

That you do, but unfortunately I fear that if you give a fishing rod to some in this thread, they'll swap it for a fish ;)

They might just use it to reel in some unsuspecting punters. ;)
Or they might just chuck it away because fish are minging!

Well I'm not surprised with all the chemical shit thats being poured into the worlds oceans and rivers by polluting corporations which some people on here are saying its perfectly OK to work for!.....
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:26 #185

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andyh wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:

That you do, but unfortunately I fear that if you give a fishing rod to some in this thread, they'll swap it for a fish ;)

They might just use it to reel in some unsuspecting punters. ;)
Or they might just chuck it away because fish are minging!

Well I'm not surprised with all the chemical shit thats being poured into the worlds oceans and rivers by polluting corporations which some people on here are saying its perfectly OK to work for!.....

Who said that?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:26 #186

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Right. Lets get this put to bed. SB and andy kindly respond with just a yes or a no.

When referring to the world we live in now, is the video correct in promoting the idea that you can stop trading with your fellow man (work) and maintain the same standard of living we have right now?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:28 #187

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andyh wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
andyh wrote:

Any of you?

Yes, obviously. :)
I watched the docu a couple of years ago.
It's not the be all & end all but it's certainly better than what we've got.

Exactly, and anyone who has watched it would know its not communism, in facts its libertarian socialism which is making the most of both self employed libertarian values AND making the most of that new found wealth for the betterment of every VOLUNTARY participant.

Isn't that the kind of world 'we' intend when we talk about money and work?
Being able to have a say in our future and wealth?

How would Mondragon function with your proposal of no money and no one working...fuck work!!!!
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:30 #188

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SilvaRizla wrote:
OK don't purchase land. Set up in the middle of the forest somewhere. Make your tools out of twigs if you want. The point is, you aren't being forced to do anything. You're choosing to. If you don't want to then fair enough go and build the dream.

You cannot. Why?
Nobody has argued what? That's what the video was about. (You should know, you posted it) The whole topic of discussion. People started talking about some fantasy world of robots doing EVERYTHING. A world we just don't live in. Before this, I said that the whole idea of stopping work is farcical, laughable and idiotic, and it is.

Society needs structure & human needs must be met..... but working & the monetary system is not the only way in which it can be done, which seems to be the basis for much of your argument.
I don't think it's much of a fantasy world to use technology to its greatest ability instead of it being used wastefully & mismanaged.
But yeh you're right.... it's not the world we currently live in. But what's gonna happen when all the technology that is used is making stuff that people cannot buy because there are no longer jobs because they've already been replaced by technology? It's already happening & has been for some time.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:30 #189

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Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
......

Anarcho-syndicalism is not a communist barter system barnfish......

Read the history of anarcho-syndicalism and you will see its origins are from worker empowerment theories such as Marxism in what can be broadly described as communistic. If you abolish money you are only left with barter.

So workers having more pay, control over their work and owning co-op banks is communist but having a co-op bank account on its own is good.

Sigh. Worker owned and cooperative institutions came from the same set of theories that resulted in failed communism. That does not mean other forms of worker cooperatives are fails.
Go watch the mondragon video, you'll find it far far removed from any chairman mao bollocks.
Mondragon exists now today in Spain and has been running successfully for donkeys years.
They are self employed...thats hardly marxist is it?
Go ahead and try for an hour to put aside your emotional biased bullshit and educate yourself.

You are making the incorrect assumption that I do not know what I am talking about. I am all for workers cooperatives and come from the home of such.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Lanark

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenwick_Weavers%27_Society

My objection is when such are taken over by ideologists and are then corrupted. Have you read Animal Farm?

Animal farm was about leninism specifically which was the result of the russian revolution.
The workers revolted to get one authority replaced with another authority.

As for other failed models of anarcho-syndicalism and worker co-op they sold out, again some people got greedy and fucked things up.
Shit happens. Shit also happens and flies around the place in prodigious amounts when people do nothing.

The point is that Mondragon, though not perfect, is 'better' than the present setup, that much is obvious to my neighbors pet gerbil :D

Mondragon also exists, you can point at the rochdale pioneers etc all you like, they failed, so what?
You don't try you fail already. Stick your money in a co-op bank all you like, it can still be worthless tomorrow anytime the govt try to hyperinflate to solve debt and theres nothing you can do about it with a co-op bank.
The govt can also take your land and property anytime they like with eminent domain.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:34 #190

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Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
andyh wrote:

Any of you?

Yes, obviously. :)
I watched the docu a couple of years ago.
It's not the be all & end all but it's certainly better than what we've got.

Exactly, and anyone who has watched it would know its not communism, in facts its libertarian socialism which is making the most of both self employed libertarian values AND making the most of that new found wealth for the betterment of every VOLUNTARY participant.

Isn't that the kind of world 'we' intend when we talk about money and work?
Being able to have a say in our future and wealth?

How would Mondragon function with your proposal of no money and no one working...fuck work!!!!

It wouldn't ?

I said I support anarcho-syndicalism at this present time as its the only improvement I can see possible under the present system.
I do not support immediately not using money and somehow expecting that to magically fix everything overnight lol.
I've already said I do NOT support TVP as it currently stands 100%. I agree with its value set principles which are something humanity should aspire towards but thats an evolutionary concept not a revolutionary one.
Unless someone knows of a way of forcing the bankers to hand over their wealth?
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:34 #191

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andyh wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
andyh wrote:

Any of you?

Yes, obviously. :)
I watched the docu a couple of years ago.
It's not the be all & end all but it's certainly better than what we've got.

Exactly, and anyone who has watched it would know its not communism, in facts its libertarian socialism which is making the most of both self employed libertarian values AND making the most of that new found wealth for the betterment of every VOLUNTARY participant.

Isn't that the kind of world 'we' intend when we talk about money and work?
Being able to have a say in our future and wealth?

It's not communism no.
I presume people are referring to heavy authoritarian state socialism a la USSR when they bring it up, which isn't strictly communism.
Set the controls for the heart of the earth.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:36 #192

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Space Bandit wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
OK don't purchase land. Set up in the middle of the forest somewhere. Make your tools out of twigs if you want. The point is, you aren't being forced to do anything. You're choosing to. If you don't want to then fair enough go and build the dream.

You cannot. Why?
Nobody has argued what? That's what the video was about. (You should know, you posted it) The whole topic of discussion. People started talking about some fantasy world of robots doing EVERYTHING. A world we just don't live in. Before this, I said that the whole idea of stopping work is farcical, laughable and idiotic, and it is.

Society needs structure & human needs must be met..... but working & the monetary system is not the only way in which it can be done, which seems to be the basis for much of your argument.
I don't think it's much of a fantasy world to use technology to its greatest ability instead of it being used wastefully & mismanaged.
But yeh you're right.... it's not the world we currently live in. But what's gonna happen when all the technology that is used is making stuff that people cannot buy because there are no longer jobs because they've already been replaced by technology? It's already happening & has been for some time.

Well, it seems that sadly, initially, those don't don't have any services to offer will be culled. As it already happening.

Then.....

People will form their own system, based on their own currency and trade (work) and not participate in the old one.

No matter what, we'll never be in a position where we need not work(exchange services) to obtain what we need.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:36 #193

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Space Bandit wrote:
andyh wrote:

Now tell me again how this is communist?

Ignore Mike. ;)

Mike was the one who was supposed to be communist and back then I was the one arguing with him ffs lol...
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:43 #194

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SilvaRizla wrote:
andyh wrote:
SilvaRizla wrote:
I'm sorry, but the whole concept is complete bullshit.

There is no possible way we can have the same standard of living as we do today without work. The whole idea is that some people have knowledge that others don't and some people have talents that others don't. As an example: If a square mile of leccy goes down who's going to fix it? I doubt there would be anyone in my area who'd do it. We'd have to pay someone with the skills to come in from a great distance and do it for us. They aren't gonna do it for free. Hell, without the notion of a 'proper job' they might not even do it at all even though they could.

If I wanted a piece of nice furniture then I'd have to get a craftsman in, doubt he'd do it for free. There are many things I like to do and there are many things I can do, not many that I can do to a professional standard and some people wouldn't want my quality of work in some areas, they'd want better. That's why we pay people with the talent for these things.

The whole notion is laughable, this is how jobs and work all came to be. The joiner couldn't butcher a cow, so he did something for a man who could (who then became the village butcher, as he was the best at doing it). Building houses, some are better than others so they help for a fee.

If we're happy to go back to the stone/bronze age then yes, but not a modern era.

Laughable.

Obsolescence by design is the name of the game ;)
If it doesn't break, you can't mass produce/replace/profit.

Also what are robots doing right now to jobs, not just here but in China.

What they aren't doing, is plenty.

People need the services of others. People are selfish. Incentive is required in a lot of cases to get one to help another at the expense of their time, and possible personal cost to them. Its that simple.

Andy said:
andy wrote:

You are taught to think that, yes.

lol :)
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:50 #195

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SilvaRizla wrote:
Well, it seems that sadly, initially, those don't don't have any services to offer will be culled. As it already happening.

Probably....
Then.....

People will form their own system, based on their own currency and trade (work) and not participate in the old one.

Reinventing the wheel.

No matter what, we'll never be in a position where we need not work(exchange services) to obtain what we need.

It's possible probably within 10-15 years, & it's been available to change for quite some time.
Obviously it's not gonna happen, and we're all gonna get buried alive instead.... thanks to good ol' money.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:51 #196

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andyh wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
......

Anarcho-syndicalism is not a communist barter system barnfish......

Read the history of anarcho-syndicalism and you will see its origins are from worker empowerment theories such as Marxism in what can be broadly described as communistic. If you abolish money you are only left with barter.

So workers having more pay, control over their work and owning co-op banks is communist but having a co-op bank account on its own is good.

Sigh. Worker owned and cooperative institutions came from the same set of theories that resulted in failed communism. That does not mean other forms of worker cooperatives are fails.
Go watch the mondragon video, you'll find it far far removed from any chairman mao bollocks.
Mondragon exists now today in Spain and has been running successfully for donkeys years.
They are self employed...thats hardly marxist is it?
Go ahead and try for an hour to put aside your emotional biased bullshit and educate yourself.

You are making the incorrect assumption that I do not know what I am talking about. I am all for workers cooperatives and come from the home of such.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Lanark

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenwick_Weavers%27_Society

My objection is when such are taken over by ideologists and are then corrupted. Have you read Animal Farm?

Animal farm was about leninism specifically which was the result of the russian revolution.
The workers revolted to get one authority replaced with another authority.

As for other failed models of anarcho-syndicalism and worker co-op they sold out, again some people got greedy and fucked things up.
Shit happens. Shit also happens and flies around the place in prodigious amounts when people do nothing.

The point is that Mondragon, though not perfect, is 'better' than the present setup, that much is obvious to my neighbors pet gerbil :D

Mondragon also exists, you can point at the rochdale pioneers etc all you like, they failed, so what?
You don't try you fail already. Stick your money in a co-op bank all you like, it can still be worthless tomorrow anytime the govt try to hyperinflate to solve debt and theres nothing you can do about it with a co-op bank.
The govt can also take your land and property anytime they like with eminent domain.

Lol, you are a reason why so many socialist ideas have foundered. Instead of cooperating, socialists, communists, Leninists, Marxists etc etc all argued amongst each other as to which system to adopt and who would be in charge. Animal Farm applies to all forms of government where there is an unregulated elite. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Mondragon will remain so long as it remains uncorrupted and I hope that is for ever. Mondragon would not be as it is if it did not use money or have people doing any fucking work.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:53 #197

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Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
Barnfish wrote:
andyh wrote:
......

Anarcho-syndicalism is not a communist barter system barnfish......

Read the history of anarcho-syndicalism and you will see its origins are from worker empowerment theories such as Marxism in what can be broadly described as communistic. If you abolish money you are only left with barter.

So workers having more pay, control over their work and owning co-op banks is communist but having a co-op bank account on its own is good.

Sigh. Worker owned and cooperative institutions came from the same set of theories that resulted in failed communism. That does not mean other forms of worker cooperatives are fails.
Go watch the mondragon video, you'll find it far far removed from any chairman mao bollocks.
Mondragon exists now today in Spain and has been running successfully for donkeys years.
They are self employed...thats hardly marxist is it?
Go ahead and try for an hour to put aside your emotional biased bullshit and educate yourself.

You are making the incorrect assumption that I do not know what I am talking about. I am all for workers cooperatives and come from the home of such.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Lanark

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenwick_Weavers%27_Society

My objection is when such are taken over by ideologists and are then corrupted. Have you read Animal Farm?

Animal farm was about leninism specifically which was the result of the russian revolution.
The workers revolted to get one authority replaced with another authority.

As for other failed models of anarcho-syndicalism and worker co-op they sold out, again some people got greedy and fucked things up.
Shit happens. Shit also happens and flies around the place in prodigious amounts when people do nothing.

The point is that Mondragon, though not perfect, is 'better' than the present setup, that much is obvious to my neighbors pet gerbil :D

Mondragon also exists, you can point at the rochdale pioneers etc all you like, they failed, so what?
You don't try you fail already. Stick your money in a co-op bank all you like, it can still be worthless tomorrow anytime the govt try to hyperinflate to solve debt and theres nothing you can do about it with a co-op bank.
The govt can also take your land and property anytime they like with eminent domain.

Lol, you are a reason why so many socialist ideas have foundered. Instead of cooperating, socialists, communists, Leninists, Marxists etc etc all argued amongst each other as to which system to adopt and who would be in charge. Animal Farm applies to all forms of government where there is an unregulated elite. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Mondragon will remain so long as it remains uncorrupted and I hope that is for ever. Mondragon would not be as it is if it did not use money or have people doing any fucking work.

So basically Mondragon is fine and has nowt to do with communism?
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:53 #198

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andyh wrote:
.......

I said I support anarcho-syndicalism at this present time as its the only improvement I can see possible under the present system.
I do not support immediately not using money and somehow expecting that to magically fix everything overnight lol.
I've already said I do NOT support TVP as it currently stands 100%. I agree with its value set principles which are something humanity should aspire towards but thats an evolutionary concept not a revolutionary one.
Unless someone knows of a way of forcing the bankers to hand over their wealth?

Yes, people ownership of financial institutions.
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:54 #199

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andyh wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
andyh wrote:

Now tell me again how this is communist?

Ignore Mike. ;)

Mike was the one who was supposed to be communist and back then I was the one arguing with him ffs lol...

off topic, but he has appeared and argued for and against just about every form of social conception in various guises.
He was Mo0nstar on DIF who was an anarchist, then he was Gue, a commie. Then he's been back on here arguing for capitalism & the status quo, & also anarcho-capitalism.
To conclude, he's got fuck all better to do!
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No-one should ever work! Fuck work! 12 Feb 2014 16:56 #200

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andyh wrote:
..
So basically Mondragon is fine and has nowt to do with communism?

Yes. Do you accept that building societies, credit unions and trustee savings banks are also fine and have nothing to do with communism?
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