Barnfish wrote:
Well thats not going to get them to hand over 32 trillion dollars worth of wealth 'legally' untaxed in the caymans if we put our money in co-op banks, if thats what you're thinking. Its half the global GDP...

Barnfish wrote:
Yes, that said I've never said co-op banks = communism.

I've actually encouraged co-op banks because they are 1 part of Mondragon which is an anarcho-syndicalist system.
Mondragon goes much much further than just putting money in co-op banks, it KEEPS money in those banks and RECYCLES money in those banks, thats a world apart from working for some globalist planet wrecking corporation and putting your taxed petty salary into a co-op bank.
The reasons why are obvious ofc.
You spend your wages on rent to someone else or buy your food from another evil corporation etc etc.

Mondragon even has its own holiday company ffs, so you go on holiday and pay for it out of your mondragon wages which goes back into mondragon corp accounts which then gets recycled into the business and you go to the mondragon supermarket and you buy your mondragon food which you voted for every few months or so which again goes in mondragon corp accounts which then gets spent on your salary and again and again recycle.
This is not just business profit accumulation it is worker retention and control over wealth and business management, it is a ridiculously good system and it is not political in the usual sense.

I still don't see it as perfection or some silly notion of utopia but its a damned site better than simply putting your money in a co-op bank alone.

Problem is, a lot of us don't speak Spanish, I know I don't for sure

So we'd have to mirror their success ourselves

andyh wrote:
Good thing it was not what I was thinking. Just like Mondragon, what I propose is not the solution to all issues. You also need to show how wealth is finite so that the use of such accounts removes money from the rest of the system.

So back to money and work, how does Mondragon function without them?

andyh wrote:
You and I are closer in our viewpoints than it originally appeared. We are both for greater worker cooperation. I suspect that the big differences are you support revolution whereas I want a more peaceful productive solution and i would not abandon money and fucking work .

andyh wrote:
No, it is a cooperative system.

Barnfish wrote:
No, no revolution at all.
The Basque people didn't revolt in any way IMHO.
They simply adapted the existing system and played the bastards at their own game.
They basically got as many people self employed and well educated as possible and as wealthy and healthy as possible with what they had.
To do it takes a lot of initially well educated individuals all with the same intent and a willingness to invest.

Its been tried before with the rochdale pioneers like I said but they sold out their shares, mondragon never did that, only workers could have an equal share and they refused to budge on that primary issue so they perhaps learned from that mistake.

Another big issue would be what business you actually carry out and initially invest in.
I would consider it probably the biggest hurdle as I doubt everyone would have the same idea or preference.

andyh wrote:
No revolution? Then how do support anarcho-syndicalism?

Barnfish wrote:
No revolution? Then how do support anarcho-syndicalism?[/quote]

Thats all there is to it basically as I said above.
It starts off just like any other business, as profits come in you start to invest in solidifying the company and then extras for workers and expansion etc.
Takes yonks.

andyh wrote:
How do you do that without money and people doing any fucking work?

Barnfish wrote:
Ummm you don't?

Its just as I said above, you start a small business and work it up with the aim of it becoming like mondragon with its own land and resources and community etc.
Again, takes monetary investment of likeminded individuals.

Its either that or join Mondragon.

andyh wrote:
So how do propose to do that and get rid of money and work?

SilvaRizla wrote:
Then quote it.

Barnfish wrote:
I think Andy is talking about the first stages of a process.

Ubuntu

Barnfish wrote:
Once you have an English speaking co-op the size of Mondragon then it would probably snowball into a monster that TPTB would have to address.
The gov would probably have to change tax law so that only plc corporations can avoid tax the way its done currently, this would put all sme's and the english mondragon so to speak on the same side together, that kind of power could control a nation state.
If that kind of level is reached then people could be awakened to being shown how the money they had been using to buy mondragon goods and services need not exist as the same goods and services could carry on being provided regardless so long as they worked as per usual with that larger infrastructure in situ.

The only advantage to having money at that point would be for foreign goods/services so you would be focusing on trying to be as self sufficient as possible. Money wouldn't be as much of a contentious issue because the workers would all be earning the same salary and spending it the same way internally anyway. There's a lot of potential angles once it reaches that size but like I said, I would deffo see something drastic happen as TPTB are very scared of the likes of Mondragon. Its the potential that matters more than what it is right now so to speak.

Now as for work, that is never removed, people will always work. Its only a matter of how they work and why. If you work for enjoyment and life enrichment then its definitely not slavery. Many arts and crafts are considered pleasurable to do for example by varying people but it is certainly vital to a functioning society to have arts and crafts just as much as science and engineering which is in turn enjoyable if done by certain types of people doing certain types of life enriching meaningful tasks, types of science and engineering that isn't normally done but you can't get to that stage without first simply participating in the standard economic model.

There's a lot more to this obviously but I'd rather not type out essays on here about it, especially when simply starting one up here is a monumental feat in itself and probably the most difficult aspect of all. So as you can see its about long term vision and a lot of luck on the way with some shrewd planning and determined teamwork.

SilvaRizla wrote:
Its there mikey.

You said wage slavery.
You said you trade your slavery for others' slavery
You've been asserting that you don't need mutual service exchange (work) and that people will work for you for free (slavery).

Just like you said you never tried to put words in my mouth when you said you don't agree

Remember?

Its all there in black and white.

andyh wrote:
So you admit then, you were wrong.

Just FYI, wage slavery is considered as a situation of perpetual 'just over broke' or JOB for short, lol .

SilvaRizla wrote:
About what specifically?

andyh wrote:
Does it matter? I think that is just important for everybody to answer his questions, stay on his topic and admit that they were wrong about everything.