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TOPIC: More evidence that ministers are above the law.

Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 14 Aug 2012 18:16 #21

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The task here is to show clear links between the FSA, the LIFG and Al Qaeda. It's not enough to show that those groups are in Syria. It has to be shown that they are actively co-ordinating with the FSA.
There are things to go on. Western journalists have interviewed Jihadists that claim to be working with the FSA.

Such as Ghaith Abdul-Ahad in the Guardian who interviewed self declared Al Qaeda member Abu Khuder :
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/30/al-...-rebels-battle-syria
According to Abu Khuder, his men are working closely with the military council that commands the Free Syrian Army brigades in the region. "We meet almost every day," he said. "We have clear instructions from our [al-Qaida] leadership that if the FSA need our help we should give it. We help them with IEDs and car bombs. Our main talent is in the bombing operations."

Then we have the AL Nusrah Front (AQ) claiming to be working alongside the FSA:

www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/arc...t_conducts_joint.php
The al Qaeda-linked Al Nusrah Front released a statement noting that it conducted a joint operation with the supposedly secular Free Syrian Army. From the Al Nusrah statement, which was translated by the SITE Intelligence Group:

"In obedience to the command of Allah, and in support of His religion and to protect the oppressed in the Levant [Syria], the soldiers of the Al Nusrah Front for the People of the Levant, in cooperation with the Battalion of the Mujahideen of the Companions [Al Sahaba Battalion], carried out an attack on the police station of Jadida Artouz in the countryside of Damascus, killing all the elements, taking their weapons, and completely destroying the building. That was on the morning of Thursday, 19-7-2012."

The Free Syrian Army of course denies any connection. So I'm struggling to find anything concrete that could be used at the moment. The question seems to be, would a lot of claims by members of proscribed groups that they're working with the FSA be suspicion enough to justify an investigation? Hague might be a tosser but I don't think he or his puppet masters are stupid....
Last Edit: 14 Aug 2012 18:18 by dubs.
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 14 Aug 2012 18:44 #22

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Now the official US reason for not giving Arms to the FSA is that they fear they will end up in the hands of Jihadists (proscribed groups).

Is this not an indirect admittance that the proscribed groups are fighting alongside the FSA?

Hague insisted that the 'aid' will not go to those actively fighting but then states that they are supporting the Syrian opposition?
Is not the Syrian opposition those that are fighting Assad?

Slippery beggers, I'll give them that...
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 14 Aug 2012 23:57 #23

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Have a listen to the speech Hague gave announcing the 5 million.....especially the section from 2:57
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middl...-within-the-law.html

"Our assistance does not include lethal assistance to the armed opposition..."

Note the emphasis.....What does that sentence imply?

To me it implies admittance that the assistance does include non lethal assistance to the armed opposition.

So which is it Billy boy? Are you or are you not assisting the armed opposition?
Last Edit: 14 Aug 2012 23:59 by dubs.
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 15 Aug 2012 13:54 #24

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I spent a few hours looking into the run up to the Syrian crisis to try and form a picture of who the opposition are, how Western Governments may have been involved etc and started to get the idea that there is a clear and demonstrable link showing that certainly the CFR have been pushing for this to happen since 2005.

Then I come across this article by Charlie Skelton in the British Guardian which would have saved me a fair bit of time if I'd spotted it earlier. Have a read, it's rather interesting......

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/ju...on-doing-the-talking
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 15 Aug 2012 23:30 #25

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I think you're definitely looking in the right place! I've been reading a bit on the Mid East clashes around a 100years ago in line with Santayana's "maxim" ;)
The Turkish Revolution of 1908-09 was commonly referred to in the West as the revolution of the Young Turks. They had founded the Unity and Progressive Party as early as 1894. They were a group of progressive and revolutionary intellectuals mostly representing the interests of the rising merchant class. In 1908, troops under the leadership of the Young Turk officers mutinied and were supported by the masses in the towns and by the peasants. The outcome was finally a Young Turk government which sought agreement with the reactionary feudal and clerical element and with the imperialist powers.

The imperialist bourgeoisie was very pleased with the Young Turk government and praised it for its moderation. Lenin on the other hand pointed out that the Turkish revolution was not really a popular revolution in that the mass of the people did not come out actively and independently with their own political demands. Lenin recognized in this generally progressive development in Turkey a form of what we would call today a neocolonialist regime. Lenin saw why the bourgeois liberals praised it to the satisfaction of the imperialists. He wrote about the struggle in Turkey in 1908 in the article "Events in the Balkans and in Persia." [2]

"Essentially," he said, "what we see going on in the Balkans, Turkey, and Persia is a counter-revolutionary coalition of the European powers against the mounting tide of democracy in Asia. ... Rivalry among the capitalist powers, anxious to bite off as big a piece as they can and extend their possessions and colonies, coupled with fear of an independent democratic movement among the nations dependent on or 'protected' by Europe -- these are two mainsprings of all European policy. The Young Turks are praised for their moderation and restraint, i.e. the Turkish revolution is being praised because it is weak, because it is not rousing the popular masses to really independent action, because it is hostile to the proletarian struggle beginning in the Ottoman Empire -- and at the same time the plunder of Turkey continues. The Young Turks are praised for making it possible to go on plundering Turkish possessions."
www.workers.org/marcy/cd/sambol/bolwar/bolwar03.htm

I think it could just as easily be talking about the "Freedom and Justice party" in Egypt, or indeed the revolutionary party backed by the West in Syria or Libya.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 15 Aug 2012 23:33 #26

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dubmeup wrote:
Have a listen to the speech Hague gave announcing the 5 million.....especially the section from 2:57
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middl...-within-the-law.html

"Our assistance does not include lethal assistance to the armed opposition..."

Note the emphasis.....What does that sentence imply?

To me it implies admittance that the assistance does include non lethal assistance to the armed opposition.

So which is it Billy boy? Are you or are you not assisting the armed opposition?

I would assume that means they won't be doing any "humanitarian" bombing campaigns on the Syrians, or calling in NATO, possibly not even providing arms just the means of obtaining such; money?
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 16 Aug 2012 00:00 #27

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Tbh Gue, in the context of showing that Hague is funding proscribed organizations, it matters not what the money provides. Any form of support for those organizations constitutes a crime under the terrorism act of 2000. The task in this regard is to find enough evidence that Hague may be so doing. He's tried to be careful and if you look into it he's done a pretty good job but even that little section of his speech I referred to raises legitimate suspicion that he is funding the armed opposition (FSA), not just the political opposition (SNC). There is certainly enough material to tie proscribed organizations into the armed opposition even though the FSA deny they work together (They would wouldn't they).

Then we have the the issues around the creation and funding by the USA and Britain since around 2005 of anti Assad groups, Barad TV etc. The SNC's main spokespeople being Bilderburgers, funded through the CFR, CER and ECFR etc. That guardian link shows that picture very well. This would seem to be clear evidence of a concerted, funded and determined attempt to bring down the leadership of a sovereign Nation over a period of years. All leading to the present day where the Saudi and Qatar funded arms going to the FSA are being 'overseen' by the CIA in Turkey etc. It's all working on smoke and mirrors.
The USA may not be providing "lethal assistance" but they are certainly overseeing it. The arms go through middle men so effectively the USA isn't lying as such. They are just using words very cleverly.
This is the same method as the funding of Badar TV. Their spokesman can legitimately claim that they are not directly linked to the US administration because the administration set up the independant "Democracy Council" to be the middle men. More clever use of words, smoke and mirrors.
I'm in the middle of looking into the international laws on instigating and funding the overthrow of the leadership of a sovereign Nation right now..
Last Edit: 16 Aug 2012 02:22 by dubs. Reason: bad memory caused mistake
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 16 Aug 2012 01:47 #28

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Look into the IMF and World Bank, the West used to invest hundreds of Millions in aid to Syria, the dates you mention are significant, isn't Assad a different branch of Islam to Saudi and Qatar?
Alot of the information you're talking about is very powerful, the place it falls down in my personal opinion is here:
The SNC’s main spokes­peo­ple being Bilder­burg­ers, funded through the CFR, CER and ECFR etc. That guardian link shows that pic­ture very well

One time attendees, confirmed, attendees, what is the actual function in the SNC?

The Lenin quotes above demonstrate this is nothing new, Bourgeois Western Groups like the Pilgrim's Society, the 1001 Club, the Bilderbergers, IMF, World Bank even down to Halliburton etc back economically Western, semi-democratic, "bourgeois" revolutions, or plain old overthrows/invasions, put simply it opens up markets for commerce and fresh labour markets for exploitation, "here's the new boss, same as the old boss".

You might be interested in this,
www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-108hr1828enr...LLS-108hr1828enr.pdf
it made me wonder, perhaps "Syria" no longer exists as a recognized entity, it will become or already is a vacuum, this is akin to preventing Terrorism in their eyes, if the Left Wing or "Al Qaedas gang" gain popular support Israel and Western Hegemony in the region may be challenged, really old Haguey is providing a future for his children with geopolitical strategy, that is why your crusade, as well intentioned and informed as it is will not go anywhere.

err, sorry for derailing your thread.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 16 Aug 2012 01:49 by Guevarista.
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 16 Aug 2012 02:04 #29

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This particular lady is a leading spokesperson for the SNC. The SNC being the accepted political opposition to Assad and the major source of the soundbites and quotes that we are seeing in the MSM, though their supposed ineptitude has seen them apparently fall out of favour with the NATO lot of late.
From Charlie Skelton's article, which I thoroughly recommend:
Here is Bassma Kodmani, seen leaving this year's Bilderberg conference in Chantilly, Virginia.

Kodmani is a member of the executive bureau and head of foreign affairs, Syrian National Council. Kodmani is close to the centre of the SNC power structure, and one of the council's most vocal spokespeople. "No dialogue with the ruling regime is possible. We can only discuss how to move on to a different political system," she declared this week. And here she is, quoted by the newswire AFP: "The next step needs to be a resolution under Chapter VII, which allows for the use of all legitimate means, coercive means, embargo on arms, as well as the use of force to oblige the regime to comply."

This statement translates into the headline "Syrians call for armed peacekeepers" (Australia's Herald Sun). When large-scale international military action is being called for, it seems only reasonable to ask: who exactly is calling for it? We can say, simply, "an official SNC spokesperson," or we can look a little closer.

This year was Kodmani's second Bilderberg. At the 2008 conference, Kodmani was listed as French; by 2012, her Frenchness had fallen away and she was listed simply as "international" – her homeland had become the world of international relations.

Yes, this sort of foreign instigated "regime change" has a very long history. There's an almost standard blueprint. What's been going on with Syria seems to fit it like a glove. I'm concentrating on Syria at the moment, I'm sure you understand why.
That document looks very interesting thanks. I'm gonna read through it now.

EDIT: I'm not suffering the delusion that my "crusade" will lead to Hague going to the Hague (boom boom) but that isn't a reason for me not to attempt to get him held accountable to UK and international legislation and convention.
Last Edit: 16 Aug 2012 02:16 by dubs.
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 16 Aug 2012 03:51 #30

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dubmeup wrote:

EDIT: I'm not suffering the delusion that my "crusade" will lead to Hague going to the Hague (boom boom).

How long have you been hanging on to that one? :chuckle:
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 16 Aug 2012 12:48 #31

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Guevarista wrote:
I think it could just as easily be talking about the "Freedom and Justice party" in Egypt, or indeed the revolutionary party backed by the West in Syria or Libya.

Just worthy of mention that the revolutionaries in Libya largely consisted of members of the Libyan Islamic Fighters Group, which is on the proscribed organization list in Britain. Ergo Britain's part in supporting them was a crime under British law and all involved are classed under British law as terrorists...
Many of those self same "revolutionaries" are now in Syria with more arriving daily...
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 25 Aug 2012 12:18 #32

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Sometimes it seems that propaganda is useful.
Check this pro rebel propaganda piece from 15:00 and listen carefully. The man speaking is Colonel Riad al-Asaad, rebel commander of the FSA.



As far as I'm concerned, that's the last piece of evidence I need. An FSA commander admitting that suicide bombing is an essential part of the FSA's actions. Whilst suicide bombing is not necessarily defined as terrorism if it is militarily targeted, there is a raft of publicly available information that shows there have been scores of civilian deaths and injuries due to the activities of suicide bombers in Syria. Remember it's not up to me to prove anything, just to show reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed....

Time to get back on the phone.....
Last Edit: 25 Aug 2012 12:39 by dubs.
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 30 Aug 2012 22:25 #33

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dubmeup wrote:

"Our assistance does not include lethal assistance to the armed opposition..."

Note the emphasis.....What does that sentence imply?

He's flogging them unloaded guns, his mate's flogging them the ammo?
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 21 Sep 2012 12:56 #34

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Government Chief Whip Andrew Mitchell has apologised for disrespectful remarks to police who made him get off his bicycle as he left Downing Street.

"I accept I did not treat the police with the respect they deserve," he said. The Conservative MP denied claims in the Sun that he had sworn and called the officers "plebs".

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19671093
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 21 Sep 2012 13:14 #35

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"He is reported to have used foul language and told the officer at the gates to "learn your place" and "you don't run this government". The officer concerned reported the incident to his superiors".

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19671093

Sounds like the chief whip was aping what his overlords told him day/days before :P
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Last Edit: 21 Sep 2012 13:16 by humanspirit.
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 21 Sep 2012 13:34 #36

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Calling him "pleb" is pretty much calling the police "plebs" (i.e. underling/perasent/poor/prole).

Nice timing btw just after two police officers were shot: Were they plebs?

Even anti-authoritarians like me know when not to stick the boot in.
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Last Edit: 21 Sep 2012 13:34 by mikey mikey.
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 21 Sep 2012 23:14 #37

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Here's what he said to the police officers:
"Best you learn your fucking place.

You don't run this fucking government
.
You're fucking plebs."
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Last Edit: 21 Sep 2012 23:16 by mikey mikey.
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 22 Sep 2012 12:18 #38

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BBC and Sky News are spinning this like Malcom Tucker.

They are pushing for a "who knows what was said" and "What's the big deal?" approach.

Basically the written account of several witnesses who are also police officers is not sufficient when it comes to a politician breaking the law (i.e.Public Order Act of 1986).

I don't approve of said law, but I did not pass it: the Tories did.

It has landed people in jail on a regular basis.
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 22 Sep 2012 13:50 #39

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Tory conference last year#

ho ho ho ho
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Re: More evidence that ministers are above the law. 22 Sep 2012 15:22 #40

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I think we'd save a lot of trouble if we just put everyone in prison, tbh. Can't afford to live? Prison. Can't find work? Prison. Disabled? Prison.

Course, then we'd only gripe about the shocking cost of keeping people in prison. You know what comes then, don't you?

:facepalm:
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