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TOPIC: Money

Re: Money 24 Dec 2012 19:56 #21

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The link isn't quite right app, I wish I could read German :)

I think you're quite right to not accept it as a foregone conclusion, the plan is certainly there and certainly in a very advanced stage but at present people are still people and capable of just walking off in a different direction. Have to say that as you say, the lack of debate on such subjects in general and the blind acceptance as things move along, doesn't inspire confidence.
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Re: Money 24 Dec 2012 20:05 #22

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Sorry Dubs, here it is transfered into in English. Thing is with the right skills we could just walk away, this is why TPTB are deskilling one faction, whilst enslaving another with the skills that belong to the others, if that makes scense, we surely eee that far, don't we, if not its time to say it how it really is, before our minds take to slumber.

THE GREATEST OBSTACLE to the transformation of the
monetary system is that few people understand the
problem and even fewer know that there is a solution. However,
since October 1987, when $1.5 trillion vanished on Wall Street,
people are more interested in listening. To be informed exactly
about the way in which interest and compound interest works is
the first step towards change. To be able to discuss the solution
and its varied implications is the next step.

BE INFORMED, INCREASE THE AWARENESS OF OTHERS Start among friends and family members to experience how
far you can explain the issue. Then move on to people you
know less well and finally don't hesitate to talk to your banker,
insurance broker, local politician, journalists and media people.
Many discussions with professionals, bankers
and economists have convinced me that there are no "real"
difficulties, except the mental blocks created by educa-
tion and limiting belief systems about what money is and
how it should function.
Be aware that money is one of the central issues in many
people's lives. Therefore, it is linked strongly with people's
perception of themselves and the world. Generosity or
greed, openness or isolation, warmth or coldness - how
people behave in other areas will be reflected in their at-
titude towards money. Usually it is difficult to treat money
as a separate issue. However, you have to explain the way
in which interest accumulates wealth before you deal with
the symptoms which appear, e.g., in the social and po-
litical arena. Otherwise, the whole discussion may become
more difficult.
Be aware that monetary reform, although it is linked
to many other problems, is not going to cure all of them
automatically. It will not by itself provide for the poor,
the old, the sick or for other social needs. Monetary re-
form will make it easier to help these groups. But that does
not mean that we can do without special programs or
mechanisms to solve other social problems. The same
applies to ecology, conservation and other tasks.
Just following what happens in the world through the
media any day will increase your understanding of the
urgency and feasibility of this change and the responsi-
bility which everybody who knows of a solution carries
in respect to making it more widely known.


SPONSOR MODEL EXPERIMENTS The most important precondition for an interest-free
monetary system is to set up some "real life examples"
which will give us an idea about the effects this change
may have on a larger scale.
Preferably, the regions or countries interested in a trial
run should coordinate their action in order to achieve a
greater validity in observing the results under different
social, cultural and economic conditions. The areas se-
lected should be large enough to provide relevant results
for the whole country. A high level of autonomy would
be desirable. That means that many of the goods and
services needed should be available in the area where the
experiment happens.
The other possibility is to choose a region which is
depressed - usually because of lack of diversification - and
create an impetus for a more differentiated and stable
economy through the introduction of a new monetary
system. The latter case may be the more tempting because
where a situation is bad enough people tend to be more
open to change, mainly when they see - as in the case of
Wörgl (Chapter 2) - that they have everything to gain and
nothing to lose in the process. On the other hand, a rela-
tively active, diversified and economically healthy area may
also see advantages in the introduction of a new monetary
system very clearly and here the success of the change may
be evident faster.
It would create more validity not to limit experiments to
one or the other situation exclusively, in order to find out
what interest-free money means in different social contexts.

START A LOCAL EXCHANGE TRADING SYSTEM Of all the attempts to exchange goods and services
outside the present money systems, the one Michael
Linton has started on Vancouver Island, Canada, is the
most easily adaptable to any locality and, therefore, the
best known world-wide.
The LET (Local Exchange Trading) System operates
quite simply as a system of accounts of "green" dollars,
without a fee on the money, but a small fee on each
transaction. People arrange among themselves how many
"green" and how many "normal" dollars each item they
sell or buy will cost. They pass on their credits and
debits to a computerized accounting center. Their limits
to go into debt can be determined, at the outset, and
changed when necessary later, in order to minimize the
risk for all participants. Obviously, the more people
participate, the more rewarding the system will be.
In this way, a small community near Vancouver
helped a dentist who was young and had no money to
build up a practice. The community built a house and
surgery, largely from green dollars. The dentist then
treated people for a certain percentage of green dollars.
The LET Systems work well in the beginning but in
some instances there have been problems or collapse (29)
where large surpluses or deficits occurred. In part this is
because with no circulation fee there is no incentive to
recycle money.
However, it still makes sense to support experiments
with different types of circulation systems than the one
we have at present, in order to enable people to understand the
functions and purposes of money better. Practical examples
provide a better learning experience than any book or lecture.

SUPPORT ETHICAL INVESTMENT One immediate step everybody can take toward transition is
to see to it that their own surplus money gets invested in an
ethical way. As more and more people begin to realize its social
and moral implications, ethical investment in the U.S.A. has
mushroomed into a multi-million dollar movement. In the words
of Hazel Henderson, "a growing army of common folk have
stood on their doorsteps, smelt the rot and can no longer let
what they do with their money counteract with what they do
with their lives." (30)
Ethical investors look at their potential investments in
economic and social terms. People like Robert Schwartz, an
early pioneer in socially responsible investment, started by
eliminating from their list of possible investments the companies
that were major defense suppliers or had unfair labor policies,
polluters, including nuclear utilities, that were destructive to the
environment and those firms who made their assets available to
repressive government regimes like South Africa. (31)
Environmental awareness is not only a vital moral standpoint
but in many cases also makes good money sense, mainly when
the situation is bad enough through the previously ruthless
exploitation of resources. The nuclear power industry, for
instance, with its accidents and clean-up costs has
proven to be a bad lemon for investors in the
U.S.A., whilst alternative energy has done well lately.
The greatest advantage of an ethical investment policy is that
it can be put into practice right now. Whether we change the
monetary system sooner or later, ethical investment is a splendid
idea in any money system.
.
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Re: Money 25 Dec 2012 00:29 #23

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Seems you've got all the answers you want already App?
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 25 Dec 2012 00:29 by Guevarista.
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Re: Money 25 Dec 2012 11:59 #24

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Guevarista wrote:
Seems you've got all the answers you want already App?

Here we have most of the things we need, there are however still many questions left unanswered, the questions from our book are normally visualised or answered by making something new, like a pair of riding boots for my grandaughter or a new wood burning stove for the workshop.

We are in effect who we are in what we make or do to each other, we choose to do as much as we can for ourselves the evidence is all around, the handymen who have come before and gone away, who secure their own futures is a bonus for the whole, even yourself may taste their wares or walk in shoes made in their eyes.

Seeing is believing, tasting is knowing, saving is the name of the money game, if you had no money for a month could you survive, we could.
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Re: Money 25 Dec 2012 12:26 #25

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I reckon you could do more than 'survive' app and for a lot longer than a month anorl ;)
And tbh whilst my 'standard of living' would likely not be as good as yours, I'm confident that I could too.
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Re: Money 25 Dec 2012 12:58 #26

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dubmeup wrote:
I reckon you could do more than 'survive' app and for a lot longer than a month anorl
And tbh whilst my 'standard of living' would likely not be as good as yours, I'm confident that I could too.

Ha ha, Dubs, All one needs to remember is to pass the twelve day rulling that I mentioned a whiles back, that's all, the job will have been sorted in that time, believe me, its a tried and tested ruling, given to me by my Grandfather, who used it after he escaped twice from prisoner of war camps in Poland during the last world war.
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Last Edit: 25 Dec 2012 13:00 by The Apprentice.
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Re: Money 26 Dec 2012 20:14 #27

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Re: Money 26 Dec 2012 20:16 #28

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Before that even.
IIRC I was discussing it on DIF with some folks as far back as 2008 or 2009.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: Money 26 Dec 2012 20:52 #29

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.......... wrote:
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Aye, I think I'm still on volauntary release over there, not yet banned outright, but I could be wrong. I had another name Rollotonazi, before seans antics first time, many thousands of posts. Asked to be removed and all posts, think they have gone nowadays.
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Re: Money 26 Dec 2012 21:01 #30

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Re: Money 26 Dec 2012 21:06 #31

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My memory of bringing up the subject of a world without money at the dif goes a bit like this


:shitstorm:
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Re: Money 26 Dec 2012 21:10 #32

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dubmeup wrote:
My memory of bringing up the subject of a world without money at the dif goes a bit like this


:shitstorm:

Its the same anywhere lol.
'Communist' invariably comes up rapidly followed by 'utopian' or something equally moronic.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: Money 26 Dec 2012 21:23 #33

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andyh wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
My memory of bringing up the subject of a world without money at the dif goes a bit like this


:shitstorm:

Its the same anywhere lol.
'Communist' invariably comes up rapidly followed by 'utopian' or something equally moronic.

I'm a happy debt free utopianist though, will do until my physical assets realise themselves and they will one day.
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Re: Money 26 Dec 2012 21:36 #34

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This isn't particularly important, but I haven't been banned from the DIF. I still know people on there and PM them occasionally.

The umbrella in a shitstorm does ring a bell, though.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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Money 01 Jan 2013 20:19 #35

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Another good explnation of monetary history worth a butchers.

www.ukcolumn.org/article/bankers-bradbur...ughter-western-front
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Money 02 Jan 2013 12:03 #36

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If tha likes figures, catch a load of this, note the names in there, you won't find this on your local library shelves.

archive.org/stream/financiersandthe03301...he033017mbp_djvu.txt
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Money 02 Jan 2013 12:41 #37

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The problem is that if you have all the money then you can get around any rules or just have them changed. As for a world without money I am sure it is possible in parts but the problem is, that when you want electricity or a place to live or a place to grow your own food or whatever, they usually want money rather than something you made or whatever. I think there are perhaps steps towards a better way. I like employee owned and shopping at independent stores(not easy here).
come at the king....you best not miss
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Money 02 Jan 2013 13:11 #38

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i-baster wrote:
The problem is that if you have all the money then you can get around any rules or just have them changed. As for a world without money I am sure it is possible in parts but the problem is, that when you want electricity or a place to live or a place to grow your own food or whatever, they usually want money rather than something you made or whatever. I think there are perhaps steps towards a better way. I like employee owned and shopping at independent stores(not easy here).

There are many ways of getting most of the things one needs, for instance, just on the local radio station a lady has furnished her entire home with good stuff from Freecycle and similar, there is LETS, and Barter etc.

The avenues of anything free here in the Uk are being stifled, you can no longer wander into a refuse yard and riffle through the goodies, due to contracted areas, if you try your gonna get locked up for a few hours with a fine to go.

The way out is to skill up, to make as much as you can for yourself, once you get the skills needed, you can then basically drop out, to levels where government designated levels of life are in your favour, it really is that simple.

In the down turn the system pays you back what you have paid in for the previous period. When things turn around, you come back out of hibernation, sort of like nature does every year to their max in the good times.

Skills, satisfaction without it becoming a burden, live, it works if one does'nt dig for someone elses gold.
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Last Edit: 02 Jan 2013 19:52 by The Apprentice.
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Money 06 Jan 2013 05:32 #39

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The Apprentice wrote:
i-baster wrote:
The problem is that if you have all the money then you can get around any rules or just have them changed. As for a world without money I am sure it is possible in parts but the problem is, that when you want electricity or a place to live or a place to grow your own food or whatever, they usually want money rather than something you made or whatever. I think there are perhaps steps towards a better way. I like employee owned and shopping at independent stores(not easy here).

There are many ways of getting most of the things one needs, for instance, just on the local radio station a lady has furnished her entire home with good stuff from Freecycle and similar, there is LETS, and Barter etc.

The avenues of anything free here in the Uk are being stifled, you can no longer wander into a refuse yard and riffle through the goodies, due to contracted areas, if you try your gonna get locked up for a few hours with a fine to go.

The way out is to skill up, to make as much as you can for yourself, once you get the skills needed, you can then basically drop out, to levels where government designated levels of life are in your favour, it really is that simple.

In the down turn the system pays you back what you have paid in for the previous period. When things turn around, you come back out of hibernation, sort of like nature does every year to their max in the good times.

Skills, satisfaction without it becoming a burden, live, it works if one does'nt dig for someone elses gold.

The question is how do you convince the majority of the population that the barter system is better than money.
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Money 06 Jan 2013 13:05 #40

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i-baster wrote:
The problem is that if you have all the money then you can get around any rules or just have them changed. As for a world without money I am sure it is possible in parts but the problem is, that when you want electricity or a place to live or a place to grow your own food or whatever, they usually want money rather than something you made or whatever. I think there are perhaps steps towards a better way. I like employee owned and shopping at independent stores(not easy here).

'they usually want money' who would that be? And why would it have to apply?

Take a look at Iceland, they have geothermal up the wazoo. Have you heard of a resource based economy?
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