Gilly wrote:
Biologically we are omnivorous, but it's debatable exactly how much meat we ate early on. It's probable we ate meat opportunistically and then developed some hunting strategy like chimpanzees occasionally cooperatively hunting monkeys. We couldn't really hunt until we were well developed enough to have social hunting/tools because we're not built for it. Unlike carnivores we have grinding molars but no fangs, we don't have claws, naturally we don't run very fast (athletes require training that would not exist 'in the wild') - a human on their own would struggle to wrestle a pig to the ground and kill it with their bare hands and would risk injury. And there is a lot of evidence too much red meat is bad for you. If you compare a human to a cat, they are built to kill and are well honed for it - we are shit in comparison. Dogs are better built to eat meat than us - their claws aren't as awesome as those of cats, but they have the teeth for it. We have a shit body for catching and killing animals. Pigs are omnivores a lot like us - they certainly don't do much hunting.

But I think that's all academic. We weren't 'made' to drive cars, live in houses or operate computers. We do not live in a 'natural' environment.
It would basically be impossible to have the intensity of meat based products in our diets we tend to and observe very good animal welfare. It is the industrialisation of farming that made large quantities of cheap meat available. It's analogous to masses of cheap goods from China being made available by the intensive exploitation of labour. We can never stop animals being harmed - they eat each other and don't give a shit - but we operate from a unique position of being able to extensively manipulate our environment and make choices. A cat will kill without thinking about it, but on the other hand they can't set up a feedlot or choose to eat tofu instead.

It's not a matter of 'we should feel guilty for EVERYTHING'. But things are as they are. But RA makes, I think, an inescapably good point. Whether we choose to feel guilt or alter our behaviour or not care is our own decision, but that doesn't change the stark fact animals are treated as exploitable, unfeeling commodities by the million for our eating pleasure, or tortured by the million to give pharmaceutical companies a cheap, unreliable and easily manipulated in their financial interest method to get new drugs on the market. This happens whether any of us would prefer to pretend it doesn't or not. or whether we care about it or not. It's the way things are.

In the UK, we do not need to eat animal products to live healthy lives let alone survive. That is how it is. There is strong evidence that a vegetarian/vegan diet is if anything more healthy than one containing meat/animal products - this will always be debated but there is abundant living evidence that people who do not consume animal products are perfectly healthy (if they're not eating too much fat or junk food or something - we can all eat unhealthily irrespective of whether we eat animal products). That is how it is. In the UK we eat meat because we like how it tastes and that gives us pleasure or animal products are in ingredients when they don't really need to be there. That is how it is.

Guilt or no guilt - it's how it is.



There is no reason why the struggle for liberation should be restricted solely to one species that considers itself above all others.




Best cookery show EVER

i think i could catch and kill a cow. i mean i could catch and kill a human, but it doesn't mean i should eat humans.
plus you can make shoes and belts and coats and stuff out of animals, its how people survived through winters

I do respect people's choice - for whatever reason - to be vegetarian. I don't like the sanctimonious attitude a lot seem to have about it though, and I also don't think it's the same as using animals for cosmetic & pharmeceutical experimentation. To me that's a different situation entirely.

It's OK saying people can live perfectly well on veg diets, but I've personally known 5 people throughout my life who were vegetarians. 4 of them were extremely obese, and every one of them was pastey faced, listless & weak. I'm not saying they all are, but am commenting on my personal experience. 3 of them gave up vegetarianism after some years, due to some deficiency in their diet causing them health issues. I don't know about the other 2, as I haven't seen them for years.

I've taken part in the past, in very lengthy debates on the subject, which people often get very passionate about (anyone remember ratcinerator or what ever the flip he was called? ) and won't do it again, because it seems pointless, in that people are likely to have their own opinions on the matter which won't be swayed - and I don't see why they should be. Each to his own.

Mine is that it's right to eat meat, as that's what our bodies were designed for. But pressure should definitely be brought to bear on the food industry to introduce much more humane (and admittedly less cost-effective) practices. The effect on prices may mean that people eat meat less frequently.

Let's ask a scientician what he thinks about it:

Gilly wrote:
You've known five vegetarians through your life???. Cripes gilly, where do you live?? Even outside animal rights circles, I've known far more vegans than that. I don't think I could count the number of vegetarians I've known.

I assume your friends fell into one of the common traps, such as replacing meat with processed soya junk food or mountains of cheese. Vegetarians may be very unhealthy if they eat crap and don't exercise same as anyone else. Because there is simply no reason to correlate not eating meat with obesity - that doesn't even make any sense from the outset - and the controversy these days is generally about if vegetarians are more healthy - the notion people are less healthy simply for not consuming animals is by this point pretty much relegated to the dustbin. Watch the ALF doc and you'll see a bunch of vegans looking like regular healthy people, as is to be expected. Or check out these guys.
www.veganbodybuilding.com/

It's inevitable people get passionate about it - for the same reason they get passionate about invasions of other countries, the government's war on the poor, starving children or any other issue involving the suffering of others people get passionate about. Similarly, people will also get frustrated with the apathy of others and challenge their social conditioning. I can see no reason why it's any different to any subject people passionately debate, so I find that entirely unsurprising. Also, people may come across as self-righteous, but I don't see that's any different to anyone who feels frustrated trying to get across why people should be bothered about sweatshops or something does and gets frustrated if people won't listen.

While I agree there's no point have a big argument, I would say the idea we need to consume animal products for health reasons or because it's 'natural' is very easily debunked bullshit. In the UK where we have a vast choice of available foodstuffs , it's a lifestyle choice based on enjoyment and convenience and perhaps a moral viewpoint about the place of animals. It really is that simple. If you choose to indulge that,, that is your choice.

batou wrote:
I think I could catch and kill a human easier than a cow. If the human had the mind of a cow.

I think really the notion we all came from Africa makes sense from this perspective. It was fine when we had the tools to kill and skin animals, but if we were in cold climates before that, I reckon we'd be super hairy. Like Sasquatch. Naked wild early humans in Norway does not strike me as plausible.

I live in Lancashire, where we are omnivorous in the main.

It's quite common for vegetarians to be obese, due to overloading on carbs to compensate for struggling to get sufficient protein.

Dogsmilk, I listened to a dietician giving a talk some time ago, and having devoted much time to study, he was convinced that a great deal of what we're led to believe about how good different foodstuffs are and are not for our well-being is complete BS. One thing he was adamant about though was that we're meant to eat meat.

I would hope you'd see that invading other countries and the government's war on the poor is not remotely similar to people believing it's right to eat meat. As stated previously, many meat-eaters are against the vile conditions that are currently in place for farmed animals, and as such, 'apathy' has nothing to do with it - that's just an accusation leveled by the self-righteous.

I usually go to a farmer's market for my meat, where you're invited to visit the farms & check for yourself that the animals are treated well. It's more expensive and a lot of people can't afford to be that selective.

I'm going to assume you don't remember Ratcinerator. I'm not sure I've got the name right anyway. His 'passion' was such that he was quite maniacal happy to threaten foul-mouthed murder to meat eaters. That's what I was referring to.

Gilly wrote:
Sure. And I'm sure you can find other dieticians that say they're wrong. Some dietician might evangelise about the Atkins diet or something, others might say it's unhealthy. What 'a dietician' says is neither here nor there.
It also depends on what kind of dietician they are - you get all this fringe stuff that says all kinds. I remember reading some copy of Nexus once where somebody with alleged credentials was saying garlic is evil and should be avoided. No matter what the food, someone somewhere will claim it's wrong. But the general medical consensus is that you do not need to eat animal products to be healthy. It is simply common sense that if your diet contains all the nutrients the human body requires you have nothing to worry about.
When my sister became a vegetarian in the 80s she was warned by her GP she'd become ill. It was bollocks.
I've been a vegetarian for 20 years and a vegan for about 12. About the same timescale for Mrs Dogsmilk. And I have noticed no difference whatsoever in my health from eating meat, being vegetarian and being vegan. Despite years of added hedonistic self abuse. I do notice a difference according to whether I eat loads of crap and the exercise I'm getting. It's just common sense.

It's all common sense that if you look around, veggies and vegans are just the same as everybody else. People take strong stances on one being healthier to the other, but as far as I'm concerned I'm not interested in arguing that veganism is healthier - I don't actually care either way. The fact is vegans (and veggies) do absolutely fine and even if there was some kind of health issue, it's obviously very, very minor as the evidence vegans/veggies are routinely unhealthy is non-existent. You can find plenty of perfectly healthy vegans out there - assuming they don't do other unhealthy things. Any health problems I may develop will most likely be because of the amount of drugs (and whatever the fuck they've been cut with) I've taken and cigarettes I've smoked over the years. Another lifestyle choice, same as what I choose to eat. And other factors like stress, pollution, chemicals in the food chain etc - my diet is the least of my health concerns unless I'm living on crisps (which I could easily do. I fucking love crisps).

However, I'd certainly agree we evolved to eat meat - I reckon a very small amount similar to our closest relatives who do eat meat but it constitutes a miniscule amount of their diet. So what?
I think the entire health argument is a smokescreen to obscure what is in essence a moral argument. The glaring fact vegans/veggies who eat sensibly do just fine and so do meat eaters who eat sensibly renders the entire issue an academic exercise in percentages of risk factors you can debate forever that are complicated by a huge array of other lifestyle and environmental factors. I wouldn't eat the still warm brains of human infants even if it was revealed as 100% certain they were healthy and we evolved to eat them. I don't need to and it's obvious why I wouldn't want to. Some hypothetical, marginal health benefit would be irrelevant. Anyone who tells me I'm 'meant' to eat meat needs to explain why I've done just fine without it for the last 20 years.

There's one thing that is certainly alarming about being vegan - you end up routinely checking the ingredients of every goddam thing in the supermarket. And boy does it grind home how much unnecessary crap is in our food beyond all the hidden horses.

Gilly wrote:
Oh, missed this -The idea veggies 'struggle' to get protein is, I'm sorry, total bollocks. As a vegan I have never struggled to 'get protein'. There are abundant sources of protein beyond meat. you don't need to even think about it. This lack of protein thing is a very old myth.

Gilly wrote:
Forgot this too - if you ever find yourself over t'border in West Yorkshire let me know - I know an excellent 100% vegan restaurant

D'oh, I wish I could remember what deficiencies prompted those people I spoke of to give up vegetarianism. They were as staunchly against meat consumption as anyone, and had gone without for years, for spiritual reasons. They tried to convert everyone they spoke to. (I might call round & see one of them this week & ask her about it). But I can't recall, so I can't argue the point and will concede instead. When they were telling me about it, I was probably distracted by the prospect of getting some rump steaks sizzling on the BBQ once I got home.

Though what you're calling a myth - i.e. the weight struggle and lethargy - is something I personally witnessed with those mates, and I don't think they ate 'badly'.

Sorry to be flippant - I'm truly horrified by the way so many animals are treated, it's just that I believe in eating meat, BUT treating the animals very well and having respect for them.

My mum was brought up on a farm, and her elders thought nothing of scooping up a chicken from the flower bed, and carrying it away from the rest to quickly ring its neck and dish up for tea.

I wouldn't mind visiting a nice vegan restaurant once in a while. I'd prefer a carvery though.

Gilly wrote:
I'm actually interested because I find it a bit mystifying. I mean, veganism means no animal, and there's shitloads of vegans out there not experiencing any deficiencies.

We used to have the family holidays on a relatives' small farm a lot when I was a kid. It was a small farm with not many animals and I think in retrospect befriending them probably planted seeds for when I got older. I learned quite young that cows and sheep have distinct personalities and can get to know you individually like cats and dogs. My uncle used to know and comment on the personalities of all his cows and have names for some of them - I think I found it baffling how he could then send them to be killed. My grandfather used to keep rabbits he killed and ate - that never quite computed either. That said, I do think it's better than the distance people place between themselves and throats gushing blood. I remember finding a girlfriend I once had very irritating in the way she ate loads of meat but couldn't bear to even watch lions killing animals on nature programmes. I do think people definitely shouldn't eat animals unless they're prepared to kill them themselves.
Myself, I find the notion of killing and devouring an creature you in any way respect because they taste nice rather perplexing.

I also think it is downright impossible to have half decent animal welfare unless we went back to how it was - meat as something expensive you don't eat every day. Which is how it was for most people for a very long time.

I think not getting enough protein is a myth.
Weight struggle and lethargy is something I'm totally unaware of. I do know one person who seriously struggled with vegetarianism - but they replaced meat with cheese and had what I suspect was lactose intolerance. That certainly being a possible significant factor for vegetarians. Being vegetarian is, I'd say, a pretty marginal dietary shift because it only cuts out meat. There is simply nothing in meat that stops you gaining weight and no reason to feel lethargic because you don't eat it.

I am also wary of people who say Oooooh it's this deficiency because you need to eat meat (equally wary of if you eat meat, you will die younger!) - I've googled around stuff saying why you should eat meat and never seen so much bullshit since the last time I spoke to tinyint. I think the entire issue is loaded with what people want to believe.

The small amount of the insides of murdered animals I've eaten didn't really taste very nice. it's just like texture but no flavour.
I find it easy to be a veggie because I find the idea of eating the insides of an animal just bizarre and unappealing, and totally primitive.

vegetables taste so bad, i cant even explain it. carrots ok, and potatos, and i like fruit too, maybe peas is alright. corns good.
i cant live on that.

Dogsmilk & Space Bandit i hear you both i really do.

Sadly i'm a killer and it's to late for me to change that now, but i honestly wan't to see this life on Earth become better for all.

Is meat addictive then?

Space Bandit wrote:
Anything can be addictive with repetition...

.......... wrote:
But are you saying you're addicted to meat?
it's just a point I've made before about it, and of course the meat eaters deny meat was addictive, yet they couldn't stop eating it!

Allow me to put the veggie cat amongst the tofu pigeons...

I was a veggie in my teens for slightly different ideological reasons than most. After seeing a whole hog (apple in t'gob, the lot) in an illegal underground restaurant in communist Russia across the road from a sparse grocery shop. It bothered me as it starkly illustrated how adults behaved when given enough/too many resources/cash. To invest the time and food in raising food just struck me as a 'luxury' and meat came to symbolise a lot to my slightly befuddled 13 year old mind. Very soon after this I discovered punk, very soon after that anarcho-punk. Anyway, being somewhat all or nothing at that time in life (yeah, I know ) I stopped being veggie when I woke up in a squat in Croxteth, hungover and hungry, and the only thing in was bread and beef paste. I have since been pretty carnivorous but still have some ideology attached to meat, I'll never leave any on my plate and try to use every single part of any animal.

One thing I found with a lot of the anarcho-punk veggie ALF types was that they came across as so misanthropic at times in some it seemed a borderline psychotic and I felt did more harm than good. As for meat being addictive I'd say yes it is. I've lived on a pretty much exclusive Greek diet for quite a few years now, predominantly veggie dishes, but I do find myself 'wanting' meat if it's been more than a week or so. I guess it's like anything, if you convince your mind and body it needs something it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, that doesn't mean the habit can't be broken.