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TOPIC: Submission

Submission 20 Jan 2014 14:50 #81

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Wolfy wrote:
Define a soul?
Why do you need a definition to say if you think that you have one?
Either you think you do, or you don't.
Is it like an ingrown toenail, cause I get that sometimes.

This 'soul' appears to be at the very essence of your submission ethos.
It makes sense to me that you must have some clear definition of what it is you refer to.
That's all I'm asking you for.
I'd be disappointed if you tried to shift the onus onto me to define something you reference.

So I repeat my request for your definition.
Thank you in anticipation of your reply. :)
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 14:57 #82

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batou wrote:
You couldn't prove the universe will continue without your presence. Tree falling in the forest ..

Well I have seen people die and I am still here, so I would say that is proof enough that the universe carries on when the body and mind die, wouldn't you?
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 15:13 #83

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feather wrote:
Wolfy wrote:
Define a soul?
Why do you need a definition to say if you think that you have one?
Either you think you do, or you don't.
Is it like an ingrown toenail, cause I get that sometimes.

This 'soul' appears to be at the very essence of your submission ethos.
It makes sense to me that you must have some clear definition of what it is you refer to.
That's all I'm asking you for.
I'd be disappointed if you tried to shift the onus onto me to define something you reference.

So I repeat my request for your definition.
Thank you in anticipation of your reply. :)

I am not sure how my definition of a soul would have any effect on whether you believe that you have one or not.

Would my definition of a cheese sandwich have any bearing on you having one or not?

I believe I am mind body and soul.

Would I have to describe my mind or body to you in order for you to make a desision on whether you have one or not?
Last Edit: 20 Jan 2014 15:14 by Wolfy.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 15:26 #84

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Cheddar, Wensleydale, Edam, Processed Slices, Kraft Triangles, Philidelphia, other?
White, Brown, Wholemeal, Mixed Grain, Ciabatta, Baguette, other?
Butter, Spread, drizzle of oil ..........
Onion, mayo, yadda, yadda, so many opportunities to be talking about completely different things under the simple title of 'cheese sandwich'

It's ok, I can hang until you're ready.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 15:52 #85

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feather wrote:
Cheddar, Wensleydale, Edam, Processed Slices, Kraft Triangles, Philidelphia, other?
White, Brown, Wholemeal, Mixed Grain, Ciabatta, Baguette, other?
Butter, Spread, drizzle of oil ..........
Onion, mayo, yadda, yadda, so many opportunities to be talking about completely different things under the simple title of 'cheese sandwich'

It's ok, I can hang until you're ready.

Really?

Different bread and cheese etc makes a cheese sandwich not a cheese sandwich?

My description of a soul is not important to this debate, either people think they have one or they don't, I am presuming you are the latter.

Hence you find the idea of submission a difficult one.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 15:56 #86

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Wolfy wrote:
batou wrote:
You couldn't prove the universe will continue without your presence. Tree falling in the forest ..

Well I have seen people die and I am still here, so I would say that is proof enough that the universe carries on when the body and mind die, wouldn't you?
Maybe you missed the point?
my limbless friend will die alone
a torso of flesh upon the throne

Violence is not the answer, it is the question. the answer is yes.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 15:58 #87

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Wolfy wrote:
Really?
Different bread and cheese etc makes a cheese sandwich not a cheese sandwich?
My description of a soul is not important to this debate, either people think they have one or they don't, I am presuming you are the latter.
Hence you find the idea of submission a difficult one.
One reason I am a devout atheist is my experience of being unable to get straight answers from religious advocates when asking for clarity.
Lookie, lookie, It's just happened again.

I could be forgiven for interpreting your evasion as you never actually having thought about my question and finding the prospect of doing so a bit daunting.

but moving on .......

So let's say I switched my powers of deduction and reasoning off and said
"Yes I don't know what you're actually talking about but I think I have a 'soul'"
Who would I then be obliged to submit to in your estimation and why?
Last Edit: 20 Jan 2014 16:09 by feather.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 16:21 #88

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Wolfy wrote:
But we are not more powerful than it, we cannot alter it hence we have to submit to it, whether we like it or not.

The thought that we can alter this law puts us in opposition to it and causes suffering.

I would take issue with this in particular...

Again, I'm no expert, but from what I am experiencing lately, individuals and indeed, we as a species enmasse, can and do alter and change our world on a daily basis.

I would agree that there are certain aspects of our physical experience that we are creating and adding to collectively, and to that extent, it may seem like you have no control or that everything is in the hands of 'fate' from an individual perspective. But this is precisely what I was trying to get at earlier, regarding listening to the internal as well as the external.

Personal experience has brought me to a point where I now no longer except I am at the whim and mercy of some unseen force or God. When I come upon an obstacle, I take the time to evaluate how it is making me feel. I try and pick up on clues in my surroundings. I listen to that tiny voice inside of me until it gets loud enough for me to hear - and it does, more often now than for as long as I can remember. I may think about what lessons I might learn from this experience, were I to choose to continue with it, if it is just something I can walk away from, that is. When I find myself in a position of not being able to do so, I might then regard it as a learning experience, still.

Terrible things happen everyday, but from whose pov are they 'terrible' and who has decided just what 'terrible' actually means?

As I stated in an earlier post elsewhere on here, there are things happening in the world that I am not yet able to justify or even begin to explain. My 'feeling' more and more on the matter however, is that these things are the very reason 'we' are here. Were it all plain sailing and daffodils, there really wouldn't be much point and certainly no room for expansion or evolution, in terms of a 'soul' or 'source energy'. In this regard, although it still irks me and I am still not 100% comfortable with this attempt at an 'explanation', it is at least more comforting than the thought that people just get sick, or just commit terrible crimes, or just die - just because.

Perhaps, individually and collectively, there are certain aspects of life that we have chosen to live through in order to experience and grow further, no matter how uncomfortable they may appear to us to be at the time. Perhaps these certain aspects have been agreed upon, either collectively or on an individual basis, at some point other than when we are focused here in physical form and trying to make sense of it all? Again...I'd be hard pushed to sell this pov to someone recently diagnosed with cancer or whose entire family had just been murdered and ofc, I'd never dare say such a thing to anyone in that position anyway...am just trying to follow this through to its natural, if absurd, conclusion in my mind.

At no point however, does this infer (to me) that these things are simply beyond our control and forced upon us by some external source. Our outward reality is consistently a mirror image of our internal state, both individually and collectively. If you are unhappy with your current situation, change the way you think about it. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE and nobody and no-thing else. Only when we take responsibility for that and actually start to believe it, can we begin the process of changing our thoughts. Only by changing our thoughts, can we change our world.

Apols if I rambled off-topic again... :roll:
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

-Buddha
Last Edit: 20 Jan 2014 17:22 by Abs.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:18 #89

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"feather" post=169782][One reason I am a devout atheist is my experience of being unable to get straight answers from religious advocates when asking for clarity.
Lookie, lookie, It's just happened again.

To me, an atheists stance is the least intellectual of them all.

How can you categorically state that something doesn't exist without proof?

Anyway that is for a different thread.
I could be forgiven for interpreting your evasion as you never actually having thought about my question and finding the prospect of doing so a bit daunting.

Interpret however you wish, it has absolutely no bearing on the debate, nor my understanding of a soul and seeing as you categorically don't believe in a soul, any explanation I could give you would be met with disbelief, right?
So let's say I switched my powers of deduction and reasoning off and said
"Yes I don't know what you're actually talking about but I think I have a 'soul'"
Who would I then be obliged to submit to in your estimation and why?

Because you would realise that your ego mind is not all that important and your purpose on this plane has nothing to do with materialism.

A position you have to find yourself in being a devout atheist.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:21 #90

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*cough*
Who would I then be obliged to submit to in your estimation and why?
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:30 #91

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Ab Origine" post=169788][
I would take issue with this in particular...

Again, I'm no expert, but from what I am experiencing lately, individuals and indeed, we as a species enmasse, can and do alter and change our world on a daily basis.

The world changes on a daily basis for sure.

But it changes in spite of us, not because of us.
I would agree that there are certain aspects of our physical experience that we are creating and adding to collectively, and to that extent, it may seem like you have no control or that everything is in the hands of 'fate' from an individual perspective. But this is precisely what I was trying to get at earlier, regarding listening to the internal as well as the external.

Personal experience has brought me to a point where I now no longer except I am at the whim and mercy of some unseen force or God. When I come upon an obstacle, I take the time to evaluate how it is making me feel. I try and pick up on clues in my surroundings. I listen to that tiny voice inside of me until it gets loud enough for me to hear - and it does, more often now than for as long as I can remember. I may think about what lessons I might learn from this experience, were I to choose to continue with it, if it is just something I can walk away from, that is. When I find myself in a position of not being able to do so, I might then regard it as a learning experience, still.

So if you walk out of your house and a brick lands on your head and kills you.

What forces killed you?

Did some force kill you? Or were you at the whim of circumstance.

Extrapolate this example to absolutely any you can think of and the principle is the same.
Terrible things happen everyday, but from whose pov are they 'terrible' and who has decided just what 'terrible' actually means?

Exactly!

Terrible, good, bad are just human made concepts and actually don't exist.

What seems bad to us is good to another.
As I stated in an earlier post elsewhere on here, there are things happening in the world that I am not yet able to justify or even begin to explain. My 'feeling' more and more on the matter however, is that these things are the very reason 'we' are here. Were it all plain sailing and daffofils, there really wouldn't be much point and certainly no room for expansion or evolution, in terms of a 'soul' or 'source energy'. In this regard, although it still irks me and I am still not 100% comfortable with this attempt at an 'explanation', it is at least more comforting than the thought that people just get sick, or just commit terrible crimes, or just die - just because.

Maybe the highlighted bit is the soul trying to communicate with you :)
Perhaps, individually and collectively, there are certain aspects of life that we have chosen to live through in order to experience and grow further, no matter how uncomfortable they may appear to us to be at the time. Perhaps these certain aspects have been agreed upon, either collectively or on an individual basis, at some point other than when we are focused here in physical form and trying to make sense of it all? Again...I'd be hard pushed to sell this pov to someone recently diagnosed with cancer or whose entire family had just been murdered and ofc, I'd never dare say such a thing to anyone in that position anyway...am just trying to follow this through to its natural, if absurd, conclusion in my mind.

I totally agree with you.

Although it is the soul that needs the experience not us.
At no point however, does this infer (to me) that these things are simply beyond our control and forced upon us by some external source. Our outward reality is consistently a mirror image of our internal state, both individually and collectively. If you are unhappy with your current situation, change the way you think about it. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE and nobody and no-thing else. Only when we take responsibility for that and actually start to believe it, can we begin the process of changing our thoughts. Only by changing our thoughts, can we change our world.

We can change our perceptions at any time, or rather we can have our perceptions changed for us ;)
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:32 #92

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feather wrote:
*cough*
Who would I then be obliged to submit to in your estimation and why?

You would be obliged to submit to a force more powerful than yourself.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:37 #93

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Wolfy wrote:
feather wrote:
*cough*
Who would I then be obliged to submit to in your estimation and why?

You would be obliged to submit to a force more powerful than yourself.
Got a handle for that Force?
A Mack truck could fit the bill.

Did you just imply that this Force lobs bricks at people to deaded them as part of some predetermined master plan?

Edit:
I'm sitting here hoping you're about to reprimand me with "I find your lack of faith disturbing"
Last Edit: 20 Jan 2014 17:40 by feather.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:40 #94

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Wolfy wrote:
So if you walk out of your house and a brick lands on your head and kills you.

What forces killed you?

Did some force kill you? Or were you at the whim of circumstance.

Extrapolate this example to absolutely any you can think of and the principle is the same.

Well, technically it would be gravity that killed me. ;)

But...if everything is energy, including us and energy made physical by 'source' if you believe in such an entity, then 'source' killed me, but I am also 'source' as is the brick.

So, source killed source (although this is impossible). Which is what I was getting at. Not some external 'force'.
What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: Our life is the creation of our mind.

-Buddha
Last Edit: 20 Jan 2014 17:41 by Abs.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:41 #95

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feather wrote:
Wolfy wrote:
feather wrote:
*cough*
Who would I then be obliged to submit to in your estimation and why?

You would be obliged to submit to a force more powerful than yourself.
Got a handle for that Force?
A Mack truck could fit the bill.

Did you just imply that this Force lobs bricks at people to deaded them as part of some predetermined master plan?

Why do you need labels?

Have you ever asked yourself?

It's because the mind needs attachments, so it can judge.

I implied some people die because of bricks landing on their heads.

You probably think it's just bad luck don't you?
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:43 #96

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So what is it, please be specific.
Try everything once.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:43 #97

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Ab Origine wrote:
Wolfy wrote:
So if you walk out of your house and a brick lands on your head and kills you.

What forces killed you?

Did some force kill you? Or were you at the whim of circumstance.

Extrapolate this example to absolutely any you can think of and the principle is the same.

Well, technically it would be gravity that killed me. ;)

But...if everything is energy, including us and energy made physical by 'source' if you believe in such an entity, then 'source' killed me, but I am also 'source' as is the brick.

So, source killed source (although this is impossible). Which is what I was getting at. Not some external 'force'.

Which brings us nicely back to the question:

What actually dies?

Or body and mind surely do.

Our soul lives on.

So what is the purpose? ;)
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:44 #98

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Wolfy wrote:
You would be obliged to submit to a force more powerful than yourself.

That's just words, isn't it. It isn't the 'submission' of will that you were talking about in the OP, when you die because a brick's fallen on your head.
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:45 #99

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feather wrote:
So what is it, please be specific.
Try everything once.

The force?

It is the creative force that runs through absolutely everything.
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Submission 20 Jan 2014 17:47 #100

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Gilly wrote:
Wolfy wrote:
You would be obliged to submit to a force more powerful than yourself.

That's just words, isn't it. It isn't the 'submission' of will that you were talking about in the OP, when you die because a brick's fallen on your head.

I submit my will to a force more powerful than myself.

It is exactly that.
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