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TOPIC: The Robinson Crusoe fallacy

The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 03:45 #1

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themendenhall.com/2011/12/30/the-robinson-crusoe-fallacy/


“This idea of absolute liberty with no responsibility to achieve equality is a myth. The idea of Robinson Crusoe building an existence for himself on a desert island never happens in the real world. No notion of private property or of an economy can exist without society and a government, and society deserves something in return because no man can exist without it.”

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Last Edit: 12 Mar 2014 03:48 by chandrakavi.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 04:22 #2

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What is quoted in the OP comes is a quote itself of the professor of the author of the linked article. The article bitterly opposes the premise in the quote above. The author, Brian Underwood, spends most of the article complaining about, his old professor, the topic of sociology, "Marxism" (which seems to be anything) and the idea that he is privileged: which he likes being but not does not like being called.
Let's have a look at another of Brian's articles
Until that time, it will continue to fall on men like the Koch brothers, Jim Rogers, and other members of the New Right like the Tea Party to refute the philosophies of men like Warren Buffet. Altruism is the enemy, and while Charles Koch should be commended for opposing its dictates, he and all the defenders of capitalism must learn capitalism’s impregnable defense which no nonargument, fallacious reasoning, epistemological distortion, or metaphysical evasion can overcome – morality.
themendenhall.com/2011/08/31/battle-of-t...itans-buffet-v-koch/

Astroturf and Koch anyone? :rofl:
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 07:34 #3

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Ironic that tbe op quote is built upon fallacy...
"laws are unenforceable if the majority break them."-humanspirit,
"avoid the concept of an ambassador for truth altogether"-gilly.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 11:59 #4

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“This idea of absolute liberty with no responsibility to achieve equality is a myth. The idea of Robinson Crusoe building an existence for himself on a desert island never happens in the real world. No notion of private property or of an economy can exist without society and a government, and society deserves something in return because no man can exist without it.”


This quote is what really was worth looking into.
In Chile we have the Robinson Crusoe Island , taken from the Daniel Defoe book a fictional character , although a few in internet say that Crusoe existed.

Juan Fernandez Archipielago 270x250


I Am not interested in the rest of the article.
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Last Edit: 12 Mar 2014 18:10 by chandrakavi.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 18:54 #5

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chandrakavi wrote:
I Am not interested in the rest of the article.

I understand but I wanted to point out that, in all likelihood, the argument presented in your quote is a strawman argument presented by the author. We have no way of knowing that his professor, whom he does not even name, said anything like this and it would be remarkable if the quote was verbatim.

Saying that: let us look at it, then
chandrakavi wrote:
“This idea of absolute liberty with no responsibility to achieve equality is a myth.

By myth, I understand "fallacy" or "falsehood".

So "Absolute liberty with no responsibility to achieve equality is false or fallacious"

So therefore there is no such thing as absolute liberty without the duty to create equality.

So there must always be a duty to create equality.

Note: why would someone suggest that the creation of equality was mandatory or inevitable? Not even Marxists suggest such a thing.

So here we have Brian's first strawman creation. i.e. "the Marxists say that liberty is impossible and equality in all things is mandatory."

No wonder he does not name the phantom professor. :coffee:

chandrakavi wrote:
The idea of Robinson Crusoe building an existence for himself on a desert island never happens in the real world. .

How does Crusoe have anything to do with the above? Crusoe was FORCED to build an existence for himself. THis is not some Randian analogy ffs!

To begin with he is not alone: he must deal with native cannibals, the people he rescues from them (including the man he called Friday, whom he educates and converts to Christianity) and then the Spanish mutineers and the captain held prisoner by them

This seems to be talking about Tom Hanks character in Castaway.

I doubt that any professor would make such a mistake.

This "quote" is fictitious.
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Last Edit: 12 Mar 2014 18:58 by mikey mikey.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 19:31 #6

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The idea that you can't 'own' a house or have any form of economy without society and government, is also a falsehkod/fallacy.
"laws are unenforceable if the majority break them."-humanspirit,
"avoid the concept of an ambassador for truth altogether"-gilly.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 19:32 #7

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Yeah, it is a fictituous Quote.

Agree, more to do with Tom Hanks CASTAWAY.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 19:36 #8

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dubmeup wrote:
The idea that you can't 'own' a house or have any form of economy without society and government, is also a falsehkod/fallacy.

One of the reasons why man can't be free, because we have governments.

I suppose this dream of "living in an Island" is a daydream escapism from this for everyone.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 21:02 #9

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It depends what we mean by words like society and government.

They are not necessarily the same thing. However, in the context of the article, they mean the bugbear that is Big Government in an almost Orwellian sense and "Society" that is sung about in the film Into the Wild.

It seems that many "libertarians" have started blaming their frustrations on Society in the same way that the "bleeding hearts" that they thoroughly despise used to when exonerating criminals and delinquents. "What of personal responsibility?" they asked. "What of individual choice and consequence?"

If that was no excuse for the failures in society, why is it what is "holding them back?"

Many societies throughout history did not use government as we understand the term today. Moreover, between the monolithic and enormous "Government/Society" there are such things as cultures, tribes and communities. Then there are extended families and clans that recognise non-blood relationships.

There is a false dichotomy being presented. The isolated man versus the Machine.

This Brian and people like him are trying to pass off this either/or of the Goliath of Faceless Society with the David of the free individual. The thrust of the argument seems to be that Goliath prevents David from achieving his own desires and ends.

Oddly enough, the hermits from Buddhism to the Monastic traditions tell us clearly that service to your own will is not freedom at all and ultimately enslaves us and pits us against each other. True freedom, these hermits tell us, is liberating ourselves from these impulses. They also warn us that life in isolation does not necessarily free us from them.

The hard lesson of the real isolated men and women is that humility and the exorcising of our internal being is the key to freedom. Some do it through living the life "away from it all" and others by service to their brothers and sisters in a community.

However, I doubt that somebody like Brian, balls deep in corporations and politics and an astroturf site has any idea what that would mean and the very idea would appal him.

In fact, I very much doubt he believes anything that he is saying. It's just sophistry designed to advance his bosses' message of furthering a hard-line capitalist agenda that cares nothing for personal freedom of every individual and only the advancement of the "freedom" of the powerful to exploit the vulnerable.

If you doubt that, take a look at he link in the OP and have a look at the site banner.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 21:43 #10

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You are disagreeing with what he says in his final statement:


Reality is the primary of all things – of man’s existence, of his consciousness, of his knowledge, and of the products of all the above. Society, if it is to be properly studied, cannot be treated as a singular entity with force of will or separate metaphysical/ethical status from its constituent members, lest those members lose their own identity in the process. Treating man as the product of society rather than society as the product of man is a reversal of metaphysics: the individual does not owe his existence to society – society owes its existence to the individual.



It all comes to a matter of opinion then.

Society is the masses, the individual you acting with your own psyche, not the collective.
Both can be very powerful.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 21:51 #11

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chandrakavi wrote:
You are disagreeing with what he says in his final statement:.

I disagree with almost everything he said.

When you say "masses" who do you mean exactly?

Are you not part of them? If not who are they? And what is your relationship to them?


Brian is a misanthrope.

I am not a misanthrope.
chandrakavi wrote:
It all comes to a matter of opinion then..

Well, the dark side of this is that only might makes right when discourse fails.

Which is ultimately what he is about.

He has no idea of how fragile his life is.

I believe that discourse, rationality and compassion can show things to be provable or not in most cases.

Anyone is free to disagree with that but the assumption that all arguments are only improvable opinions means that dialogue can only be so much hot air.

I guess we all choose to engage in discourse on our own level.
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Last Edit: 12 Mar 2014 22:02 by mikey mikey.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 22:02 #12

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Have you read the first chapter of this book, called THE ISLANDERS?


www.thesufi.com/sufi_ebooks/Sufism%20ebo...is_-_Idries_Shah.pdf

(The Sufi master Sanai of Afghanistan, teacher of Rumi, iu The Walled Garden of Truth, written in 1131 A.D.)
Most fables contain at least some truth, and they often enable people to absorb ideas which the ordinary patterns of their thinking would prevent them from digesting. Fables have therefore been used, not least by the Sufi teachers, to present a picture of life more in harmony with their feelings than is possible by means of intellectual exercises.

Here is a Sufic fable about the human situation, summa- rized and adapted, as must always be, suitably to the time in which it is presented. Ordinary "entertainment" fables are considered by Sufi authors to be a degenerated or infe- rior form of art.


Once upon a time there lived an ideal community in a far-off land. Its members had no fears as we now know them. Instead of uncertainty and vacillation, they had pur- posefulness and a fuller means of expressing themselves. Although there were none of the stresses and tensions which mankind now considers essential to its progress, their lives were richer, because other, better elements replaced these things. Theirs, therefore, was a slightly

2 TIM SUFIS
existence. We could almost say that our present perceptions
are a crude, makeshift version of the real ones which thus
community possessed.

They had real lives, not semilives..

We can call them the El Ar people

They had a leader, who discovered that their country was
to become uninhabitable for a period of, shall we say, twenty thousand years. He planned their escape, realizing
that their descendants would be able to return home suc-
cessfully, only after many trials.

He found for them a place of refuge, an island whose
features were only roughly similar to those of the original homeland. Because of the difference in climate and situa- tion, the immigrants had to undergo a transformation. This made them more physically and mentally adapted to the
new circumstances; coarse perceptions, for instance, were substituted for finer ones, as when the hand of the manual laborer becomes toughened in response to the needs of his
calling.

In order to reduce the pain which a comparison between
the old and new states would bring, they were made to for- get the past almost entirely. Only the most shadowy recol- lection of it remained, yet it was sufficient to be awakened when the time came. . The

The system was very complicated, but well arranged organs by means of which the people survived on the island were also made the organs of enjoyment, physical and men- tal. The organs which were really constructive in the old homeland were placed in a special form of abeyance, and linked with the shadowy memory, in preparation for its eventual activation.

TeaISLANDERS 3
was the first of a succession of islands upon which gradual acclimatization took place.

The responsibility of this "evolution" was vested in those individuals who could sustain it. These were necessarily
only a few, because for the mass of the people the effort of keeping both sets of knowledge in their consciousness

Slowly and painfully the immigrants settled down, ad-
that the effort to escape placed a heavy and often seemingly unwelcome burden upon the people. At the same time they
were disposed to believe things which they were told about the escape operation. He realized that he could acquire power, and also revenge himself upon those who had under- valued him, as he thought, by a simple exploitation of these two sets of facts.
He would merely offer to take away the burden, by affirming that there was no burden.

He made this announcement:

'There is no need for man to integrate his mind and train it in the way which has been described to you. The
human mind is already a stable and continuous, consistent thing. You have been told that you have to become a crafts-
justing themselves to the local conditions. The resources of the island were such that, coupled with effort and a cer- tain form of guidance, people would be able to escape to a
further island, on the way back to their original home. This
was virtually impossible. One of them seemed to conflict
with the other one. Certain specialists guarded the "special science."

This "secret," the method of effecting the transition, was
nothing more or less than the knowledge of maritime skills
and their application. The escape needed an instructor, raw materials, people, effort and understanding. Given these,
people could learn to swim, and also to build ships .

The people who were originally in charge of the escape operations made it clear to everyone that a certain prepara
tion was necessary before anyone could learn to swim or even take part in building a ship. For a time the process
continued satisfactorily.

Then a man who had been found, for the time being,
lacking in the necessary qualities rebelled against this order and managed to develop a masterly idea. He had observed
THE SUFIS
THE ISLANDERS 5
the simplicity and comfort of the revolutionary concept. Soon it was considered to be a basic fact which had never been challenged by any rational person. Rational, of course, meant anyone who harmonized with the general theory it- self, upon which society was now based.
Ideas which opposed the new one were easily called ir- rational. Anything irrational was bad. Thereafter, even
if he had doubts, the individual had to suppress them or divert them, because he must at alcosts be thought rational.

It was not very difficult to be rational. One had only to adhere to the values of society. Further, evidence of the
truth of rationality abounded-providing that one did not think beyond the life of the island.

Society had now temporarily equilibrated itself within the island, and seemed to provide a plausible completeness, if viewed by means of itself. It was based upon reason plus emotion, making both seem plausible. Cannibalism, for in- stance, was permitted on rational grounds. The human body was found to be edible. Edibility was a characteristic of food. Therefore the human body was food . In order to compensate for the shortcomings of this reasoning, a make- shift was arranged. Cannibalism was controlled, in the interests of society. Compromise was the trademark of temporary balance. Every now and again someone pointed
out a new compromise, and the struggle between reason, ambition and community produced some fresh social norm.

Since the skills of boatbuilding had no obvious applica- tion within this society, the effort could easily be considered absurd. Boats were not needed-there was nowhere to go. The consequences of certain assumptions can be made to "prove" those assumptions. This is what is called pseudo- certainty, the substitute for real certainty. It is what we deal in every day, when we assume that we will live another day. But our islanders applied it to everything.

Two entries in the great Island Universal Encyclopaedia show us how the process worked. Distilling their wisdom
man in order to build a ship. I say, not only do you not need to be a craftsman-you do not need a ship at all! An islander needs only to observe a few simple rules to survive and re- main integrated into society. By the exercise of common sense, born into everyone, he can attain anything upon this island, our home, the common property and heritage of all!"

The tonguester, having gained a great deal' of interest among the people, now "proved" his message by saying:

"If there is any reality in ships and swimming, show us ships which have made the journey, and swimmers who have come back!"
This was a challenge to the instructors which they could not meet. It was based upon an assumption of which the bemused herd could not now see the fallacy. You see, ships never returned from the other land. Swimmers, when they did come back, had undergone a fresh adaptation which made them invisible to the crowd.

The mob pressed for demonstrative proof.

"Shipbuilding," said the escapers, in an attempt to reason
with the revolt, "is an art and a craft . The learning and the exercise of this lore depends upon special techniques . These together make up a total activity, which cannot be examined piecemeal, as you demand. This activity has an impalpable element, called baraka, from which the word 'barque'-a ship-is derived. This word means 'the Subtlety,' and it can- not be shown to you."
tionaries.

And so they hanged as many shipbuilding craftsmen as
they could find
The new gospel was welcomed on all sides as one of liber-
ation. Man had discovered that he was already mature! He felt, for the time at least, as if he had been released from
responsibility.

Most other ways of thinking were soon swamped by
"Art, craft, total, baraka, nonsense!" shouted the revolutionaries.


Masses is when people act as Institutions, as groups, we are all part of that sometimes when we work as a team,
We are all part of the system, Matrix, and are individuals when we are on our own two feet. Trying to stay away from the system.


I must say again that this link , I thought was ONLY on Robinsoe Crusoe, but it is not. WRONG choice on my part.
he has no idea how fragile his life is

We are all fragile and vulnerable Events of all nature, if what you say Mickey is that in discourse he is being intellectual
I guess it is so. I don't know if this BRIAN is a well known person in the UK, first time I have come across him.

Never thought talking about Crusoe would get me into this philosophical kind of arguments.

By governments I mean part of the control Matrix, system, establishment, a system of control, call it how you like.
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Last Edit: 12 Mar 2014 22:56 by chandrakavi.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 22:04 #13

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Is it relevant to the thread and everything I have posted in response to your OP?

Do I need to read it before I post further, or is it essential to carry the conversation forward?

If so, why?

Please explain it by summary and show its relation to this topic.

I like reading.
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The Robinson Crusoe fallacy 12 Mar 2014 22:28 #14

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mikey mikey wrote:
Is it relevant to the thread and everything I have posted in response to your OP?

Do I need to read it before I post further, or is it essential to carry the conversation forward?

If so, why?

Please explain it by summary and show its relation to this topic.

I like reading.

It's interesting, but off topic, not quite relevant, but it's ok.
After all we always get off topic on this forum
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Last Edit: 12 Mar 2014 22:30 by chandrakavi.
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