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TOPIC: Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?!

Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 13 Apr 2013 23:52 #1

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Sport
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Extreme violence in Millwall end has football fading into irrelevance

The fighting at the FA Cup semi-final was the most widescreen, big-occasion bout of hooliganism in the Premier League era

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Barney Ronay
Barney Ronay at Wembley
The Observer, Saturday 13 April 2013 22.01 BST
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Millwall fans
Police officers attempt to stop Millwall supporters fighting among themselves during the FA Cup semi-final at Wembley. Photograph: Laurence Griffiths/Getty Images

What a strange, and indeed disturbing, occasion this was. Wigan are in the FA Cup final for the first time in their history after beating Millwall 2-0, but this Wembley semi-final will be remembered instead for the extreme, concentrated outbreak of violence among spectators at the end behind Millwall's goal – the Millwall end – during the final 10 minutes of the match, apparently a continuation of two smaller second-half flare-ups in the same area.

It was a genuinely vicious spectacle, captured in jarring close-up detail by the television cameras and clearly visible from the press seats nearby: a group of up to 30 men of varying ages throwing punches and kicks, with blood spilt, boots put in and at least one policeman attacked in the aisle. Indeed, the absence of the police, so visibly mob-handed outside the stadium, while the outbreak of well-schooled and genuinely vicious violence rumbled on inside it, scarcely did the Met much credit. If there was some bemusement too at Wembley's stewards hanging back limply in their high-vis jackets, it must be remembered first that these are £7-an-hour freelance ushers, rather than security guards.

Plus, if there are excuses for a failure to intervene, this level of violence simply seemed so utterly jarring at teatime among the made-over corporate environs of the new Wembley Stadium; a moment of startling primitivism within the sealed perimeter of New Football made all the more bizarre by the fact that the match, complete with burbling PA announcements, continued while teeth were being extracted and noses crushed, all of it watched by a brigade of soldiers craning their necks with mild interest 20 metres away.

Not to mention garnished by half a stand of Millwall fans chanting "Wankers!" at the men swinging punches and launching kicks in their midst while parents in the surrounding rows shielded their children from the men hurling each other across the aisles. Oh brave, old, largely forgotten world that has such people in it.

It is important to be clear that this was a small group rather than a concerted and contagious movement, or a stand of rushing combatants. There will be the inevitable "Back to the dark ages" headlines. There will be some truly horrendous images to emerge from a moment of high-visibility, semi-professional thuggery. Not to mention the temptation to link, with florid abandon, a moment of distinctly 1980s-style public violence with the ambient Thatcher mnemonics of the past week. There was even something a little darkly comic, and indeed imaginative, in the police isolating the anti-Thatcher demo in Trafalgar Square immediately afterwards; as though these neo‑hooligans would as a matter of course, political antennae twitching, head for the nearest ideological hotspot.

Violence is often a great deal less complex than this. For all football's carefully stewarded self-reinvention, people have continued to punch and kick one another beyond, and even within, its managed borders. There were rumours in the aftermath of an infiltration of West Hams supporters in the Millwall end (it is a toxic rivalry) but to what extent football – clubs, fans, governing bodies – should feel themselves responsible for such moments of darkness remains open to fruitless discussion. What does seem certain is that this was the most widescreen, close-up, big-occasion moment of extreme crowd violence at a football match on British soil since the straitenings of the Premier League era, a rare sense of genuine contagion within this hermetically sealed environment.

Millwall will doubtless, and rightly, be heavily punished for the fact that the violence occurred in their end. The club has made concerted efforts to eliminate the unpleasant elements of its support, and yet the fact is it remains a magnet for those who go out looking for this kind of thing, including some who travel in from London's periphery (witness the white vans to be seen pulling up and disgorging their day-trippers close to The Den before home games).

And for all its urban location this is still a strangely isolated club, buried in the industrial inner suburbs, hard to get to, detached from gentrified new-build London. It must also be said there was a sense of isolation, almost a weariness to the club response immediately after the game. The manager, Kenny Jackett, claimed not to have seen the incident and stopped short of condemning anybody for anything. Millwall's media officer made it clear, in not so many words, that there are those who might point the finger at the police for not intervening quicker. The Millwall chairman, John Berylson, mused that you can never be sure who's sitting where on these occasions. Perhaps proximity to such things frays the nerves and dulls the reflexes, but given the genuinely shocking nature of the violence, something more is required. There will be calls for fines and bans. A greater show of backbone from those in authority at the club would be a good place to start.

And to think that up until the 80th minute of this match, the talking points seemed likely to be ticketing and two expertly worked goals by Shaun Maloney and Callum McManaman. But both issues seemed to fade into something close to irrelevance as Wembley turned its face from the pitch and towards the fists being thrown in the stands.

www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/ap...INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 14 Apr 2013 05:22 #2

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Space Bandit wrote:

Sport
Football
Millwall

Talking Sport badge
Extreme violence in Millwall end has football fading into irrelevance

The fighting at the FA Cup semi-final was the most widescreen, big-occasion bout of hooliganism in the Premier League era

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Barney Ronay
Barney Ronay at Wembley
The Observer, Saturday 13 April 2013 22.01 BST
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Millwall fans
Police officers attempt to stop Millwall supporters fighting among themselves during the FA Cup semi-final at Wembley. Photograph: Laurence Griffiths/Getty Images

What a strange, and indeed disturbing, occasion this was. Wigan are in the FA Cup final for the first time in their history after beating Millwall 2-0, but this Wembley semi-final will be remembered instead for the extreme, concentrated outbreak of violence among spectators at the end behind Millwall's goal – the Millwall end – during the final 10 minutes of the match, apparently a continuation of two smaller second-half flare-ups in the same area.

It was a genuinely vicious spectacle, captured in jarring close-up detail by the television cameras and clearly visible from the press seats nearby: a group of up to 30 men of varying ages throwing punches and kicks, with blood spilt, boots put in and at least one policeman attacked in the aisle. Indeed, the absence of the police, so visibly mob-handed outside the stadium, while the outbreak of well-schooled and genuinely vicious violence rumbled on inside it, scarcely did the Met much credit. If there was some bemusement too at Wembley's stewards hanging back limply in their high-vis jackets, it must be remembered first that these are £7-an-hour freelance ushers, rather than security guards.

Plus, if there are excuses for a failure to intervene, this level of violence simply seemed so utterly jarring at teatime among the made-over corporate environs of the new Wembley Stadium; a moment of startling primitivism within the sealed perimeter of New Football made all the more bizarre by the fact that the match, complete with burbling PA announcements, continued while teeth were being extracted and noses crushed, all of it watched by a brigade of soldiers craning their necks with mild interest 20 metres away.

Not to mention garnished by half a stand of Millwall fans chanting "Wankers!" at the men swinging punches and launching kicks in their midst while parents in the surrounding rows shielded their children from the men hurling each other across the aisles. Oh brave, old, largely forgotten world that has such people in it.

It is important to be clear that this was a small group rather than a concerted and contagious movement, or a stand of rushing combatants. There will be the inevitable "Back to the dark ages" headlines. There will be some truly horrendous images to emerge from a moment of high-visibility, semi-professional thuggery. Not to mention the temptation to link, with florid abandon, a moment of distinctly 1980s-style public violence with the ambient Thatcher mnemonics of the past week. There was even something a little darkly comic, and indeed imaginative, in the police isolating the anti-Thatcher demo in Trafalgar Square immediately afterwards; as though these neo‑hooligans would as a matter of course, political antennae twitching, head for the nearest ideological hotspot.

Violence is often a great deal less complex than this. For all football's carefully stewarded self-reinvention, people have continued to punch and kick one another beyond, and even within, its managed borders. There were rumours in the aftermath of an infiltration of West Hams supporters in the Millwall end (it is a toxic rivalry) but to what extent football – clubs, fans, governing bodies – should feel themselves responsible for such moments of darkness remains open to fruitless discussion. What does seem certain is that this was the most widescreen, close-up, big-occasion moment of extreme crowd violence at a football match on British soil since the straitenings of the Premier League era, a rare sense of genuine contagion within this hermetically sealed environment.

Millwall will doubtless, and rightly, be heavily punished for the fact that the violence occurred in their end. The club has made concerted efforts to eliminate the unpleasant elements of its support, and yet the fact is it remains a magnet for those who go out looking for this kind of thing, including some who travel in from London's periphery (witness the white vans to be seen pulling up and disgorging their day-trippers close to The Den before home games).

And for all its urban location this is still a strangely isolated club, buried in the industrial inner suburbs, hard to get to, detached from gentrified new-build London. It must also be said there was a sense of isolation, almost a weariness to the club response immediately after the game. The manager, Kenny Jackett, claimed not to have seen the incident and stopped short of condemning anybody for anything. Millwall's media officer made it clear, in not so many words, that there are those who might point the finger at the police for not intervening quicker. The Millwall chairman, John Berylson, mused that you can never be sure who's sitting where on these occasions. Perhaps proximity to such things frays the nerves and dulls the reflexes, but given the genuinely shocking nature of the violence, something more is required. There will be calls for fines and bans. A greater show of backbone from those in authority at the club would be a good place to start.

And to think that up until the 80th minute of this match, the talking points seemed likely to be ticketing and two expertly worked goals by Shaun Maloney and Callum McManaman. But both issues seemed to fade into something close to irrelevance as Wembley turned its face from the pitch and towards the fists being thrown in the stands.

www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/ap...INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

Any shit to sell a rag
Extreme violence in Millwall end ffs :killinme: :killinme:
Football Violence has never gone away :conf: Of course Millwall are the only club that has there own fans fighting each other :killinme: :hahano:

Just fuck off :aargh:
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 14 Apr 2013 06:49 #3

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Soccer fans are fighting each other, humans are behaving bad......BLAME THE ILLUMINATI!!!!!!
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 14 Apr 2013 12:10 #4

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I bet they feel really big having made an 11 year-old girl feel threatened and upset:

The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 14 Apr 2013 12:23 #5

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:

Any shit to sell a rag
Extreme violence in Millwall end ffs :killinme: :killinme:
Football Violence has never gone away :conf: Of course Millwall are the only club that has there own fans fighting each other :killinme: :hahano:

Just fuck off :aargh:

So in the same way a gun somehow compensates for a barely functioning penis, does football violence fill the void of never getting laid by providing it's participants with some level of physical contact?
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 14 Apr 2013 14:26 #6

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Millwall fans were always known as particularly violent, and very proud of it.

If they're now fighting against one another... meh, why not. It seems to be the fashion du jour, same as rioting and destroying your own neighbourhood (coz it's easier than destroying the rich neighbourhoods); or joining in the political decimation of the people just below you in the queue to doom.

Turn on one another.... tres trendy, I'd say!

:)
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 14 Apr 2013 15:22 #7

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Glad i don't live in millwall :chuckle:

Must be a southern thing to be a mug.

An all northern final Manchester City v Wigan ;)
naivety attracts evil and evil attracts naivety
Last Edit: 14 Apr 2013 15:33 by humanspirit.
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 14 Apr 2013 19:16 #8

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:
Any shit to sell a rag
Extreme violence in Millwall end ffs :killinme: :killinme:
Football Violence has never gone away :conf: Of course Millwall are the only club that has there own fans fighting each other :killinme: :hahano:

Football violence certainly aint what it used to be. It's gone lower league a lot now as they made the premier league more family orientated and tv friendly.
Where is it claimed that Millwall are the only club with their own fans fighting each other I missed that bit?
Just fuck off :aargh:
:roll:
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 15 Apr 2013 04:53 #9

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Space Bandit wrote:
entrangermercenary1 wrote:
Any shit to sell a rag
Extreme violence in Millwall end ffs :killinme: :killinme:
Football Violence has never gone away :conf: Of course Millwall are the only club that has there own fans fighting each other :killinme: :hahano:

Football violence certainly aint what it used to be. It's gone lower league a lot now as they made the premier league more family orientated and tv friendly.
Where is it claimed that Millwall are the only club with their own fans fighting each other I missed that bit?
Just fuck off :aargh:
:roll:

Its gone lower league has it :killinme:
what paper did you read that in ? :band:

Just keep copying and pasting....seems a good forum ideology, when people know fuck all about the subject :bat: :nono: :spank: :killinme:
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 15 Apr 2013 04:58 #10

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
I bet they feel really big having made an 11 year-old girl feel threatened and upset:


Another expert I see....stick to your fantasy football league thingymajig, goes well with your fantasy outlook on life :rofl:
I bet you were the wanker claiming to be a cabby who said and I paraphrase " I went by a pub that's well known for meets for Wembley near Baker street tube station.Thats the Globe btw ;) There was police vans and a couple of ambulances all ready waiting" :killinme:
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 15 Apr 2013 05:59 #11

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i wish I was ITK :mad:
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 15 Apr 2013 11:17 #12

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:
Another expert I see....stick to your fantasy football league thingymajig, goes well with your fantasy outlook on life :rofl:
I bet you were the wanker claiming to be a cabby who said and I paraphrase " I went by a pub that's well known for meets for Wembley near Baker street tube station.Thats the Globe btw ;) There was police vans and a couple of ambulances all ready waiting" :killinme:
Listen, mate, you're just making yourself look stupid. Or to put it more accurately, more stupid. I'm not bothered what you say about me, I don't care, I don't respect you in the slightest.

There's nothing to be proud of in getting a hard on over violence. Perhaps it would be understandable if you were a virile, testosterone-filled twenty year-old. But as you're in your fifties and old enough to be a grandparent, it's just sad and puerile. I neither know nor care about any of the specifics of what happened, I just view it as pathetic, as most people do.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 15 Apr 2013 12:41 #13

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:

Its gone lower league has it :killinme:
what paper did you read that in ? :band:

Just keep copying and pasting....seems a good forum ideology, when people know fuck all about the subject :bat: :nono: :spank: :killinme:

Maybe through watching lower league football and encountering more of it?
:roll:
Of course you're involved in it all... like you're involved in everything else at high levels.
:chuckle:
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 15 Apr 2013 12:48 #14

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Space Bandit wrote:
entrangermercenary1 wrote:

Its gone lower league has it :killinme:
what paper did you read that in ? :band:

Just keep copying and pasting....seems a good forum ideology, when people know fuck all about the subject :bat: :nono: :spank: :killinme:

Maybe through watching lower league football and encountering more of it?
:roll:
Of course you're involved in it all... like you're involved in everything else at high levels.
:chuckle:

Maybe because banning orders don't apply at lower levels. Anyone ITK knows that. :chuckle:
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 15 Apr 2013 23:43 #15

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A police horse seen being punched by a football fan is "safe and well" this morning, its police force said.

The incident occurred as violence erupted after Newcastle lost a derby match with fierce local rivals Sunderland.

Pictures and video emerged yesterday of a man trying to punch the horse before he was hauled to the ground by officers.

www.itv.com/news/2013-04-15/newcastle-pu...se-sunderland-derby/

Clearly no need...
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 16 Apr 2013 04:58 #16

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oioioi wrote:
Space Bandit wrote:
entrangermercenary1 wrote:

Its gone lower league has it :killinme:
what paper did you read that in ? :band:

Just keep copying and pasting....seems a good forum ideology, when people know fuck all about the subject :bat: :nono: :spank: :killinme:

Maybe through watching lower league football and encountering more of it?
:roll:
Of course you're involved in it all... like you're involved in everything else at high levels.
:chuckle:

Maybe because banning orders don't apply at lower levels. Anyone ITK knows that. :chuckle:

FOOTBALL BANNING ORDERS BY CLUB SUPPORTED
Total number of banning orders against risk supporters of each club
TABLE 1
Total as at 29th November 2011 – 3,173 (962 imposed since the last annual statistics)
Premier League
Banning Orders
Championship
Banning Orders
League One
Banning Orders
League Two
Banning Orders
Other Clubs
Banning Orders
Arsenal
76
Barnsley
26
Bournemouth
10
Accrington Stanley
2
Ajax (Netherlands)
3
Aston Villa
63
Birmingham City
84
Brentford
19
Aldershot Town
26
Alfreton Town
1
Blackburn Rovers
31
Blackpool
17
Bury
8
Barnet
2
Barrow
8
Bolton Wanderers
25
Brighton & Hove Albion
10
Carlisle United
8
Bradford City
38
Bangor City
3
Chelsea
105
Bristol City
25
Charlton Athletic
17
Bristol Rovers
19
Boston United
1
Everton
52
Burnley
43
Chesterfield
36
Burton Albion
2
Cambridge United
3
Fulham
4
Cardiff City
143
Colchester United
21
Cheltenham Town
5
Celtic
5
Liverpool
64
Coventry City
31
Exeter City
26
Crawley Town
4
Chester City
8
Manchester City
46
Crystal Palace
32
Hartlepool United
13
Crewe Alexandra
15
Curzon Ashton
1
Manchester United
101
Derby County
33
Huddersfield Town
41
Dagenham & Redbridge
0
Darlington
13
Newcastle United
98
Doncaster Rovers
13
Leyton Orient
8
Gillingham
1
Fleetwood Town
7
Norwich City
26
Hull City
66
Milton Keynes Dons
1
Hereford United
12
Fredrikstad (Norway)
1
Queens Park Rangers
21
Ipswich Town
9
Notts County
8
Macclesfield Town
2
Grimsby Town
79
Stoke City
40
Leeds United
106
Oldham Athletic
16
Morecombe
2
Hibernian
2
Swansea City
76
Leicester City
44
Preston North End
15
Northampton Town
7
Kettering Town
5
Sunderland
53
Middlesbrough
73
Rochdale
16
Oxford United
32
Kidderminster Harr.
1
Tottenham Hotspur
62
Millwall
65
Scunthorpe United
17
Plymouth Argyle
33
Lincoln City
14
West Bromwich Albion
32
Nottingham Forest
52
Sheffield United
43
Port Vale
30
Luton Town
26
Wigan Athletic
10
Peterborough United
9
Sheffield Wednesday
72
Rotherham United
15
Mansfield Town
25
Wolverhampton Wand.
52
Portsmouth
32
Stevenage
1
Shrewsbury Town
20
Newport County
12
Reading
9
Tranmere Rovers
14
Southend United
8
Rangers
15
Southampton
67
Walsall
13
Swindon Town
32
Redditch Town
1
Watford
4
Wycombe Wanderers
2
Torquay United
15
Rushden & Diamonds
1
West Ham United
98
Yeovil
1
Wimbledon
4
Salisbury
5
Schalke (Germany)
1
Staines Town
1
Stockport County
13
Telford United
9
United of Manchester
2
:coffee:
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 16 Apr 2013 05:12 #17

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
entrangermercenary1 wrote:
Another expert I see....stick to your fantasy football league thingymajig, goes well with your fantasy outlook on life :rofl:
I bet you were the wanker claiming to be a cabby who said and I paraphrase " I went by a pub that's well known for meets for Wembley near Baker street tube station.Thats the Globe btw ;) There was police vans and a couple of ambulances all ready waiting" :killinme:
Listen, mate, you're just making yourself look stupid. Or to put it more accurately, more stupid. I'm not bothered what you say about me, I don't care, I don't respect you in the slightest.

There's nothing to be proud of in getting a hard on over violence. Perhaps it would be understandable if you were a virile, testosterone-filled twenty year-old. But as you're in your fifties and old enough to be a grandparent, it's just sad and puerile. I neither know nor care about any of the specifics of what happened, I just view it as pathetic, as most people do.

I am :D well bravo for me :killinme:
Did you have your thumb in your mouth and stamp your feet when saying I dont care I dont care :rofl:

Seems you care enough about me to put screen shots up and save my posts :pmsl: :pop:

You neither now or care about the specifics of what happened but decided to post anyway. That's you down to a fucking T :sokay:
wake_up_bomb wrote:
I bet they feel really big having made an 11 year-old girl feel threatened and upset:



Btw you still in LIVIING in the UK? Whats is like living somewhere that you despise the politics, the Government, and armed forces? Ahh maybe its the good standard of living and not worrying about getting the old head parted from the body :larf:
Last Edit: 16 Apr 2013 05:13 by entrangermercenary1.
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 16 Apr 2013 05:17 #18

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Space Bandit wrote:
entrangermercenary1 wrote:

Its gone lower league has it :killinme:
what paper did you read that in ? :band:

Just keep copying and pasting....seems a good forum ideology, when people know fuck all about the subject :bat: :nono: :spank: :killinme:

Maybe through watching lower league football and encountering more of it?
:roll:
Of course you're involved in it all... like you're involved in everything else at high levels.
:chuckle:
Actually retired now, not virile enough or have enough testerone running through the body at 50 plus :emb: :pmsl:

Football violence is rife through all the divisions, its just brushed under the carpet unless some high profile shit happens. It never went away, just migrated a bit :shtf:
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Football violence makes a comeback... fight your own fans?! 16 Apr 2013 09:35 #19

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:
I am :D well bravo for me :killinme:
Did you have your thumb in your mouth and stamp your feet when saying I dont care I dont care :rofl:

Seems you care enough about me to put screen shots up and save my posts :pmsl: :pop:

You neither now or care about the specifics of what happened but decided to post anyway. That's you down to a fucking T :sokay:
It wasn't really necessary to 'save your posts'. It took me about a five second Google search to find you saying that you "couldn't give a fuck" about the hundreds of thousands of people (conservatively) that died in Iraq, because surprisingly no-one else ever said that on the DIF!

Iraqt


Even on an armed forces forum, where most people get a hard on over war, such comments would be considered repulsive. Every right thinking person in the world would consider them repugnant. Every single person that reads them on here will consider them indefensible. Surprisingly, you seem to have dropped that discussion now, after you were "fucking owned" and "decimated":

sanctumzone.co.uk/forum/General/91727-go...tml?start=220#115666

There's no running away from it. That's who you are. As well as not "giving a fuck" about Iraq, and getting a hard on over war and violence in general, we can add glorifying football hooliganism and thinking it's big and clever that a load of blokes upset an 11 year-old girl to the list. You would think you might have grown up a little bit, seeing as you're old enough to be a grandparent, but obviously not.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 16 Apr 2013 10:47 by wake_up_bomb.
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