Guevarista wrote: No not the same amount back.
Every VAT invoice I have gets deducted from what I have invoiced other companies and I pay govt the difference left over.
Say for example I submit 6 months worth of invoices to my customers and I charge 6000 quid in VAT, then I look at what I've bought in the way of VAT expenses over that same 6 month period and subtract that amount lets say its 1000 quid from the 6000 quid I invoiced and I pay the govt 5000 quid. I get to pocket the 1000 quid. Joe Bloggs PAYE worker never gets any VAT back.

Taxes are only viable if the govt issues its own money at 0% interest and taxes people to reduce inflation, in that instance its moral.
They should never ever need to tax anyone just so that govt can repay banks at interest for borrowing money for social welfare etc.
As for resources they should simply be accurately measured and fairly distributed.

I get to pocket the 1000 quid. Joe Bloggs PAYE worker never gets any VAT back.

they’re stu­pid idiots.

So when you "look at what I've bought in the way of VAT expenses over that same 6 month period and subtract that amount lets say its 1000 quid from the 6000 quid I invoiced and I pay the govt 5000 quid. I get to pocket the 1000 quid."
What is it that the £1000 (I assume essentially Joe Blogg's taxes?) goes on then, in general, is it about amassing a personal fortune or larger private property holdings, if so I see it as completely compatible with the Status Quo and nothing near an Anarchist praxis?

Guevarista wrote:
Its a symbiotic relationship.
Business thrives with government, the one exists for the other. The proles exist to service both.
The only way to beat them is to become one or the other and tip the scales.

How is ordinary people becoming self employed maintaining the status quo?
You're not meant to become slef employed, you are not meant to ever learn about this stuff and actually do it, if millions of people left the PAYE system and became self emplyed they would have a serious problem.

Excuse me am i reading this right?
Business and government exist to exploit the proles you must join either business or governemt to tip the scales in favour of either, complete government or complete financial domination of the proles?

Who would have a serious problem, poor people dependent on government services, state employees?
The Merchant Classes, Industrial giants, the owners of mountains of Feudal Wealth?

Guevarista wrote:
Its a symbiotic relationship.
Business thrives with government, the one exists for the other. The proles exist to service both.
The only way to beat them is to become one or the other and tip the scales.
How is ordinary people becoming self employed maintaining the status quo?
You're not meant to become slef employed, you are not meant to ever learn about this stuff and actually do it, if millions of people left the PAYE system and became self emplyed they would have a serious problem.
Fair enough they would no doubt try and change the rules but how would they do this without causing themselves some serious damage in the process?

As far as I'm concerned I've done something productive about it, I see a lot of whining and little doing.

An £82.5 million StartUp Loan scheme is to be launched today that will give our next generation of entrepreneurs the finance and support to potentially start over 30 thousand new businesses, in a move to boost enterprise and economic growth.

Any young people aged 18–24 accessing the StartUp Loans can expect to receive expert and personal support to help develop a business plan and access training. Where the business plan is robust and approved, they will be able to access financial support in the form of a loan typically in the order of £2,500 with a repayment period of up to five years.

It comes on the day that Lord Young’s report on enterprise is published which shows that if we had the same rates of entrepreneurship as the US than we would have 900,000 more businesses in the UK. Lord Young sets out the strength, diversity and growth of small businesses in recent years, a clear contrast to the Bolton Report of 1971 which predicted small businesses were in long-term decline.

Andy, the government fucking love self employed people. It's entrepeneurial. It's the capitalist dream.

An £82.5 million StartUp Loan scheme is to be launched today that will give our next generation of entrepreneurs the finance and support to potentially start over 30 thousand new businesses, in a move to boost enterprise and economic growth.

Any young people aged 18–24 accessing the StartUp Loans can expect to receive expert and personal support to help develop a business plan and access training. Where the business plan is robust and approved, they will be able to access financial support in the form of a loan typically in the order of £2,500 with a repayment period of up to five years.

It comes on the day that Lord Young’s report on enterprise is published which shows that if we had the same rates of entrepreneurship as the US than we would have 900,000 more businesses in the UK. Lord Young sets out the strength, diversity and growth of small businesses in recent years, a clear contrast to the Bolton Report of 1971 which predicted small businesses were in long-term decline.

www.number10.gov.uk/news/lord-young-report-enterprise/

Please don't delude yourself there is anything remotely not status quo about being self employed, no matter how much tax you're fiddling.

Guevarista wrote: Its a 'if you can't beat 'em join 'em' methodology.
The more people who do it and get benefit out of it the better as far as I'm concerned.

andyh wrote: That was also the attitude of the Co-operatives in Mussolini's Italy

I don't suppose you get much endorsement of your views in the Anarchist community?

dogsmilk wrote: Of course they do...so why not get some of the loving eh?


If I'm not paying tax then I'm not paying for government. Go figure.

That's fine. If you're doing well for yourself, that's great. I just don't get how you think it's going to hange anything or has anything whatsoever to do with the topic. David Cameron would shake you by the hand and say well done - just as long as you didn't mention the tax thing in which case he'd obviously grass you up. Unless you're a billionaire, in which case he'd make you minister of persecuting people on the dole or something.

I don't suppose you get much endorsement of your views in the Anarchist community?

I thought this might be an interesting thread. Having just read the last few pages, well, what can I say?

If I'd stayed at school and gone on to college I imagine this thread would be pretty similar to the kind of stuff I'd have heard in the Union bar......... Stupid words, constant blathering about what someone said years ago that we're all supposed to be able to quote verbatim, ego wars, repeating, calls for violence.......It's no wonder that the system just keeps getting stronger.


Guess I'll go back to getting on with being a country bumpkin that's prepared to take responsibility for myself and shaft the man any chance I get......

Signing off any involvement whatsoever in this perfect example of why modern day "revolutionaries" aint got a bloody clue

Guevarista wrote:
I've never seen the anarchist community have any interest whatsoever in starting small businesses and achieving the overthrow of the state and an end to capitalism by fiddling the taxman.

I thought this might be an interesting thread. Having just read the last few pages, well, what can I say?

If I'd stayed at school and gone on to college I imagine this thread would be pretty similar to the kind of stuff I'd have heard in the Union bar......... Stupid words, constant blathering about what someone said years ago that we're all supposed to be able to quote verbatim, ego wars, repeating, calls for violence.......It's no wonder that the system just keeps getting stronger.


Guess I'll go back to getting on with being a country bumpkin that's prepared to take responsibility for myself and shaft the man any chance I get......

Signing off any involvement whatsoever in this perfect example of why modern day "revolutionaries" aint got a bloody clue

dogsmilk wrote:
Obviously you haven't
The ones chucking bricks at shop windows are easier to spot I must admit...

I thought this might be an interesting thread. Having just read the last few pages, well, what can I say?

If I'd stayed at school and gone on to college I imagine this thread would be pretty similar to the kind of stuff I'd have heard in the Union bar......... Stupid words, constant blathering about what someone said years ago that we're all supposed to be able to quote verbatim, ego wars, repeating, calls for violence.......It's no wonder that the system just keeps getting stronger.


Guess I'll go back to getting on with being a country bumpkin that's prepared to take responsibility for myself and shaft the man any chance I get......

Signing off any involvement whatsoever in this perfect example of why modern day "revolutionaries" aint got a bloody clue

What is a petit bourgeois? In economic terms it refers to a small businessperson, someone who is either self-employed, works only with members of her/his family, or has a handful of employees; a shopkeeper. The petit bourgeois may hold the title to her store, but the bank holds the mortgage; the petit bourgeois may or may not dislike neo-liberal globalization, and may grumble about the injustice of monopoly capitalism, but this is only a complaint about a particular organization of capitalism — the petit bourgeois is still a capitalist, relying on the exchange of commodities for a profit, however small. In Marxist slang (because of the Marxist assertion that economic status determines one’s socio-cultural ideology) it’s also used to describe a certain mentality that accompanies the precarious and self-centered economic status of the person whose relationship to the oft-cited Means of Production is not the same as that of the big bourgeois (large landowner, banker, boss). In class terms, the bourgeois is in constant conflict with the proletarian; the petit bourgeois can take either side, but more often than not comes down against the proletarian as well. If the historical mission of the proletariat is to expropriate the private property and social wealth of capitalists, then the petit bourgeois will ultimately remain loyal to the regime of capitalism, private property, and the state.

The petit bourgeois is stereotypically small-minded, parochial, conformist, acquisitive, stingy, and easily swayed by demagoguery. Populism (characterized by anti-intellectualism; the scapegoating of easy/abstract targets; charismatic yet approachable leaders, and the promotion of small-scale capitalism) is often the typical expression of petit-bourgeois politics.

andyh wrote:
Please direct me to any anarchist community anywhere that has.

Dub, do you really think popping into a thread just to (inaccurately - like where has anyone "called for violence"??) slag off what everyone has been saying is a prime example of taking responsibility?

If you don't like the conversation, you simply need not join in. Or offer a meaningful opinion as to what you think of the topic.