Gilly wrote:
Absolutely yep.
Thats how natural selection works. Fuckwits would naturally be bred out of the loop.
Today though its working in reverse.

thats almost the same as eugenics though, you cant let little kids suffer at the hands of people who are too drunk/high/stupid not to know better by turning a blind eye there has to be a line where you step in and stop that. same reasons we dont let kids work in coal mines, to give them a chance to grow up unhurt and decide what they want to be. same reason we take animals away from people who cant look after them and neglect them

batou wrote:
Its the entire opposite

I know lots of ppl are having brainfarts about it but thats the reality of it.

Eugenics is deliberate human manipulation, letting nature have its way would be the entire opposite lol.

Gilly wrote:
Nail on head.

i disagree with that i think if people have kids and are unable to provide a nurturing environment for them to grow into healthy adults, they shouldn't be allowed to ruin those kids lives or hurt them and it falls on us as society to take care of those kids and put them into homes of people who want to and will do it. for why it is our responsibility..: because we are communities and take care of our own

andyh wrote:
It's not just fuckwits though... there'd be thousands of innocent kids & old & vulnerable people who'd also perish.
Communities don't bother to take care of people like that.... if they did obviously that would be a better solution.

batou wrote:
This is what families are meant to do, not a nation state of millions of people.

The core issue is that there is no decent environment for these kids to be born into anyway, even with good parents.
We are constantly trying to fix a problem with the same level of thought that create the issue in the first place, it is merely self perpetuating.
No matter what we do from a governmental standpoint it will only make things worse, this is the core dilemma of authoritarian thinking. Its cognitive dissonance if you will. It retains the thinking that meddling will fix things, yet time and again it is shown that it merely makes things worse. So what does it do? It carries on doing it, again and again and again because at the end of the day we are not yet evolved enough as a species to accept that we make mistakes. We are not yet Gods, so we should not expect to be able to act as such.

The reality is that bad parents are in the minority, bad govt policy enforcement officers are in the majority.
Some people will ofc continue to deny reality to their grave, they'll carry on supporting it stalwartly no matter what
This is the programming that is rammed into our skulls from birth, that somehow we can solve all problems by patching symptoms.
Its visible in everything from the economy to the health service to the military and all of it is complete madness and in laughable hypocrisy of itself and its own aims and that of the other supposed aims of the society as a whole.
The human mind is really at war with itself.

Space Bandit wrote:
/points at Africa.

I don't see anyone pushing any armies of social workers over there to solve that problem, do you?

andyh wrote:
No, just armies.
tbh, you only ever hear about the bad stuff social services do....
You never hear about the thousands of people they actually sort out & help....

Space Bandit wrote:
This'll be the 'thousands' mentioned in the daily mail right?
Or perhaps the tens of thousands of adoptees denied their birthright to know their family lineage by social workers to protect politicians who are probably dead by now?

Even you make up excuses, its great to watch tbh :p

The things I mentioned above- healthcare, military and economy can be traced right back to tribal roots, we really haven't evolved much at all, merely expanded in number.

andyh wrote:
No, I don't read the Heil.
I've read the countless letters the Mrs brings home from her work praising her for all the help she's given them. Without her help, these people who are old or vulnerable would be seriously fucked.
They're not all just shoving babies into furnaces & stuff.... unless you just read Icke.

Space Bandit wrote:
No I'm talking about the govt workers who are outed as child abusers/pedos etc.
This is in the news btw, nothing to do with icke.

The denying adoptees their right to know their family happens every day btw and they're not kids either.

Its this holier than thou bollocks, I see it everywhere. Overblown self importance and ego, its hilarious.

andyh wrote:
The 'thousands' I'm talking about are the innocent people social services actually sort out, and who without, would more than likely be dead or suffer a nasty end. From what I see, social workers generally have good intentions but get weighed down with the baggage of the bureaucracy of the governments plans & targets etc. i don't think society as it is would be better of without them, likely the opposite. It's just often badly implemented & run by people that can't be trusted. We can only look at society as it is now and try to improve it, rather than dwelling on how and why we got to this point.

Space Bandit wrote:
You cannot improve society if you refuse to see how the problems were created in the first place.
You will merely keep on failing, this is what I was getting at earlier.

Its also worth noting that no-one has commented how many lives have been saved and/or improved by such simple people as builders or traders or computer engineers.
Why are public servants so fucking important? Why are they the first jobs that come to mind as being worth discussing or paying attention to?
How about plumbers? Electricians?
All these people in their own way are in fact far MORE important than social workers or even healthcare workers, again it takes a totally different level of thinking and perspective to see that and this is NOT taught to kids at school. Such thinking is discouraged by merely not mentioning it. IMHO it SHOULD be mentioned, in fact it should be yelled across the TV at ppl 24/7 to show how fucked up they all are :p

Your views are too harsh for my sensitive soul, Andy.

It'd be easy to agree with you if people were simply split into 2 groups - good & smart / stupid & destructive. But it's so much more complicated, with varying degrees of fuckwittery from one person to the next. I wouldn't like to be the one judging who deserves to be lent a helping hand where needed, and who's unworthy & should just be left to become extinct.

I see the Social Services the same way I see other establishments - the NHS, the Police force etc etc. An unacceptable element of them are corrupt and/or inefficient beyond belief. But I believe there are individuals among them who are driven by their consciences, with a real desire to do the right thing. Those people can achieve fantastic results that have a profoundly beneficial impact on the lives of others.

Gilly wrote:
Every single one of those people in the nhs , the police and the social workers are completely useless without engineers to make all their tools and supply their power.
Hardly anyone bothers to mention them.

You see, I don't consider this viewpoint 'harsh' at all, in fact I consider the view of people who have faith in a stupid silly insane system as being 'harsh'.
Those who even have the best of intentions are harsh because they perpetuate it.
The only solution to such a problem is to abandon it and start again as it is obviously flawed at its core, there is this false belief that it is for good purposes, when in fact its true purpose is to do nothing more than maintain a paradigm and keep people in order so that those on top can stay living the life they do at everyone elses expense.

If you really love someone then you set them free :p

andyh wrote:
What I'm getting at is that there's no point going on about having a government and it being evil & society being a piece of decaying shit - it's not relevant to people with terminal illnesses & stuff who need help right now.
Can we be certain that the problems weren't initially borne out of 'natural selection'?
There are doubtless countless inventions & skills that help people's day to day life.... but the thread is about social services !

andyh wrote:
I don't know where you get that nobody mentions the tradesmen. They do talk to kids about those sorts of careers at school. They all have an important role to play in society. But I don't see what relevance that has to a discussion about the OP title. And generally speaking, they aren't decision makers who can alter the courses of others' lives much, so it stands to reason that they aren't spoken of in the same manner.

Nobody here has expressed faith in the stupid, silly, insane systems that but there's a notable absence of better ones. And some people are assisted by them, regardless of any hidden motives of the upper echelons.

I like the idea of devising something better. What hope is there that they'd be adopted?

Space Bandit wrote:
And what I have said is not relevant to it?
Do you see what you have done there? You just flat out denied a fact, it is a fact that social services cannot function without many other unsung heroes in society is it not?
So why put social services on a pedestal?
Why not the factory floor worker or better still the miner who digs for the raw materials?
Why glorify solely people who work for the state?

Gilly wrote:
No hope whatsoever that such decent solutions would be adopted without first admitting that there is in fact a problem at the core of society itself Gilly.
From those first steps progress is made, but not until.
This is why my view at first seems harsh but if you're honest enough to put the emotions aside you can clearly see that this is indeed correct. As a whole the grand structure is at war with itself, its eating itself apart, primarily because the driving factor is profit.

Sure such trades I mentioned might be mentioned at school but they do not mention their importance, not their true real importance and real world relevance. The wages paid for such jobs also reflect the attitude that society as a whole has towards them.
They are considered to be 2nd class citizens, not as important as healthcare workers, it is this stupid attitude which actually serves to undermine capitalism at its core, which is that a market if left alone will set a true value for the commodity....and yet it CLEARLY has not has it?
A clear coloured hard carbon rock is worth several lifetimes of hard labour and even the deaths of many men to mine it and bring it to the surface. Surely you can see how fucked up that is and that allegory is just as relevant for a myriad of other examples I could care to point at - ESPECIALLY in the government sector...starting with politicians