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TOPIC: The Republic (Plato)

The Republic (Plato) 06 Apr 2013 23:23 #1

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The dialectical forms of government...

While Plato spends much of the Republic having Socrates narrate a conversation about the city he founds with Glaucon and Adeimantus "in speech", the discussion eventually turns to considering four regimes that exist in reality and tend to degrade successively into each other: timocracy, oligarchy (also called plutocracy), democracy and tyranny (also called despotism).

Timocracy..

Socrates defines a timocracy as a government of people who love rule and honor. Socrates argues that the timocracy emerges from aristocracy due to a civil war breaking out among the ruling class and the majority. Over time, many more births will occur to people who lack aristocratic, guardian qualities, slowly drawing the populace away from knowledge, music, poetry and "guardian education", toward money-making and the acquisition of possessions. This civil war between those who value wisdom and those who value material acquisition will be in struggle until a just medium is compromised. The timocracy values war insofar as it satisfies a love of victory and honor. The timocratic man loves physical training, and hunting, and values his abilities in warfare.

Oligarchy...

Temptations create a confusion between economic status and honor which is responsible for the emergence of oligarchy. In Book VIII, Socrates suggests that wealth will not help a pilot to navigate his ship, as his concerns will be directed centrally toward increasing his wealth by whatever means, rather than seeking out wisdom or honor. The injustice of economic disparity divides the rich and the poor, thus creating an environment for criminals and beggars to emerge. The rich are constantly plotting against the poor and vice versa. The oligarchic constitution is based on property assessment and wealth qualification. Unlike the timocracy, oligarchs are also unable to fight war, since they do not wish to arm the majority for fear of their rising up against them (even moreso fearing the majority than their enemies), nor do they seem to pay mercenaries, since they are reluctant to spend monies.

Democracy..

As this socioeconomic divide grows, so do tensions between social classes. From the conflicts arising out of such tensions, the poor majority overthrow the wealthy minority, and democracy replaces the oligarchy preceding it. The poor overthrow the oligarchs and grant liberties and freedoms to citizens, creating a most variegated collection of peoples under a "supermarket" of constitutions. A visually appealing demagogue is soon lifted up to protect the interests of the lower class. However, with too much freedom, no requirements for anyone to rule, and having no interest in assessing the background of their rulers (other than honoring such people because they wish the majority well) the people become easily persuaded by such a demagogue's appeal to try and satisfy people's common, base, and unnecessary pleasures.

Tyranny...

The excessive freedoms granted to the citizens of a democracy ultimately leads to a tyranny, the furthest regressed type of government. These freedoms divide the people into three socioeconomic classes: the dominating class, the elites and the commoners. Tensions between the dominating class and the elites cause the commoners to seek out protection of their democratic liberties. They invest all their power in their democratic demagogue, who, in turn, becomes corrupted by the power and becomes a tyrant with a small entourage of his supporters for protection and absolute control of his people...


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Republic_(Plato)
archive.org/details/platos_republic_0902_librivox1
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The Republic (Plato) 06 Apr 2013 23:31 #2

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My first Greek philosophy book. A fave of Adolf's apparently!
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The Republic (Plato) 06 Apr 2013 23:39 #3

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oioioi wrote:
My first Greek philosophy book. A fave of Adolf's apparently!

So it will be a fave of the United States of America then...Yes/No... ;)



www.republicoftheunitedstates.org/what-is-the-republic/
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The Republic (Plato) 06 Apr 2013 23:43 #4

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Plato was a great student, but behind every great student... ;)
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The Republic (Plato) 06 Apr 2013 23:47 #5

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The Apology is Plato's version of the speech given by Socrates as he defended himself in 399 BC against the charges of "corrupting the young, and by not believing in the gods in whom the city believes, but in other daimonia that are novel". "Apology" here has its earlier meaning (now usually expressed by the word "apologia") of speaking in defense of a cause or of one's beliefs or actions (from the Ancient Greek ἀπολογία)...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)
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The Republic (Plato) 07 Apr 2013 01:15 #6

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Socrates was usually to be found in the marketplace and other public areas, conversing with a variety of different people—young and old, male and female, slave and free, rich and poor—that is, with virtually anyone he could persuade to join with him in his question-and-answer mode of probing serious matters. Socrates' lifework consisted in the examination of people's lives, his own and others', because “the unexamined life is not worth living for a human being,” as he says at his trial (Plato, Apology 38a). Socrates pursued this task single-mindedly, questioning people about what matters most, e.g., courage, love, reverence, moderation, and the state of their souls generally. He did this regardless of whether his respondents wanted to be questioned or resisted him; and Athenian youths imitated Socrates' questioning style, much to the annoyance of some of their parents. He had a reputation for irony, though what that means exactly is controversial; at a minimum, Socrates' irony consisted in his saying that he knew nothing of importance and wanted to listen to others, yet keeping the upper hand in every discussion. One further aspect of Socrates' much-touted strangeness should be mentioned: his dogged failure to align himself politically with oligarchs or democrats; rather, he had friends and enemies among both, and he supported and opposed actions of both...



Philosophers have usually privileged the account of Socrates given by their fellow philosopher, Plato. Plato was about twenty-five when Socrates was tried and executed, and had probably known the old man most of his life. It would have been hard for a boy of Plato's social class, residing in the political district (deme) of Collytus within the city walls, to avoid Socrates. The extant sources agree that Socrates was often to be found where youths of the city spent their time. Further, Plato's representation of individual Athenians has proved over time to correspond remarkably well to both archaeological and literary evidence: in his use of names and places, familial relations and friendship bonds, and even in his rough dating of events in almost all the authentic dialogues where Socrates is the dominant figure. The dialogues have dramatic dates that fall into place as one learns more about their characters and, despite incidental anachronisms, there turns out to be more realism in the dialogues than most have suspected. The Ion, Lysis, Euthydemus, Meno, Menexenus, Theaetetus, Euthyphro, the frame of Symposium, Apology, Crito, Phaedo (although Plato says he was not himself present at Socrates' execution), and frame of Parmenides are the dialogues in which Plato had greatest access to the Athenians he depicts...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconophilia
plato.stanford.edu/entries/socrates/
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Last Edit: 07 Apr 2013 01:15 by LightGiver.
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The Republic (Plato) 07 Apr 2013 01:18 #7

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The Republic (Plato) 07 Apr 2013 01:39 #8

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His willingness to criticize arguments that he found unsound, regardless of subject, challenged and threatened some prominent Athenians. Socrates made powerful political enemies when he spoke against Athens' new democratic governmental system, which he considered ineffectual and corrupt. During this time, the Peloponnesian War dragged on, and the city of Athens suffered plague, treason, and finally total defeat. Socrates and his outspoken opinions became increasingly aggravating to the ruling elite. It was thought that his influence over the youth of Athens was dangerous, particularly his association with Critias, a former student and a powerful figure in the Rule of Thirty, a tyrannic government that came to power in Athens after the period of political flux in the aftermath of the Peloponnesian War. ..



Socrates fought bravely in at least three campaigns in the Peloponnesian War -- at Potidaea (432 B.C. -- aged 37), at Delium (424 B.C. -- aged 45) and at Amphipolis (422 B.C. -- aged 47)...

www.watson.org/~leigh/philo.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War
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The Republic (Plato) 07 Apr 2013 01:57 #9

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In the Apology, Socrates refers to Achilles' activity in the Trojan War in regards to avenging the death of his comrade and lover Patroclus. He knew, as a result of his mother's prophesy, that he was fated to die after Hector, who had killed Patroclus. Despite all this he slew Hector anyway, honor being more important than his own life. Socrates' point about Achilles is that he pursued what was right even though he knew it would lead to his own death. Socrates, then, is a kind of philosophical Achilles, asking and probing the ignorant even though it places him in mortal danger as a result...

We aren't talking about obvious parallels between two major military campaigns separated by millennia - the Trojan War and the First Crusade are but different names of one and the same military campaign. The former ended up in the distant past due to the blatantly erroneous chronology that we use - one that was created by the Jesuits in the 16th 17th century. This chronology, regarded by many as the absolute historical truth, contains many gaps and repetitions. Most major historical events (as well as personalities and even places) have several phantom duplicates arbitrarily dated to various antediluvian epochs and presumed completely unrelated to one another - the Trojan War and the First Crusade are a perfect example. Our entire view of the so-called "Antiquity" and the Middle Ages changes radically; history becomes streamlined and unencumbered by all the dark ages, lost empires and mystical cyclic patterns that afflict the official version. The duplicates all roll into a single historical reality - Classical Greek poleis become one with the mediaeval Crusader states, ancient Egyptian paganism identifies as Coptic Christianity, and historical Troy, Constantinople and Jerusalem turn out to be the same city on the Bosporus, which we know as Istanbul. The city in Palestine known as Jerusalem today remained a nondescript Arabic settlement called El-Kuds until the 18th century. There isn't a single Crusader map in existence that would locate Jerusalem in Palestine (or indeed give us any detailed information about that region) - unlike modern historians, mediaeval cartographers knew the location of the Holy Land perfectly well...

socrates.clarke.edu/aplg0232.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Fomenko
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Last Edit: 07 Apr 2013 01:58 by LightGiver.
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The Republic (Plato) 07 Apr 2013 21:12 #10

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Timocracy..

how'd we get to that?
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The Republic (Plato) 07 Apr 2013 21:25 #11

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All is impermanent. And what is the all that is impermanent? The eye is impermanent, visual objects [ruupaa]... eye-consciousness... eye contact [cakku-samphassa]... whatever is felt [vedayita] as pleasant or unpleasant or neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant, born of eye-contact is impermanent. [Likewise with the ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind] (SN 35.43/vol. iv, 28)

All formations are impermanent..

Whatever is subject to origination is subject to cessation ...


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decay
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The Republic (Plato) 07 Apr 2013 23:50 #12

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THE most famous of the ancient religious Mysteries were the Eleusinian, whose rites were celebrated every five years in the city of Eleusis to honor Ceres (Demeter, Rhea, or Isis) and her daughter, Persephone. The initiates of the Eleusinian School were famous throughout Greece for the beauty of their philosophic concepts and the high standards of morality which they demonstrated in their daily lives. Because of their excellence, these Mysteries spread to Rome and Britain, and later the initiations were given in both these countries. The Eleusinian Mysteries, named for the community in Attica where the sacred dramas were first presented, are generally believed to have been founded by Eumolpos about fourteen hundred years before the birth of Christ, and through the Platonic system of philosophy their principles have been preserved to modern times...

Just as the Lesser Mysteries discussed the prenatal epoch of man when the consciousness in its nine days (embryologically, months) was descending into the realm of illusion and assuming the veil of unreality, so the Greater Mysteries discussed the principles of spiritual regeneration and revealed to initiates not only the simplest but also the most direct and complete method of liberating their higher natures from the bondage of material ignorance. Like Prometheus chained to the top of Mount Caucasus, man's higher nature is chained to his inadequate personality. The nine days of initiation were also symbolic of the nine spheres through which the human soul descends during the process of assuming a terrestrial form. The secret exercises for spiritual unfoldment given to disciples of the higher degrees are unknown, but there is every reason to believe that they were similar to the Brahmanic Mysteries, since it is known that the Eleusinian ceremonies were closed with the Sanskrit words "Konx Om Pax."

Women and children were admitted to the Eleusinian Mysteries, and at one time there were literally thousands of initiates. Because this vast host was not prepared for the highest spiritual and mystical doctrines, a division necessarily took place within the society itself. The higher teachings were given to only a limited number of initiates who, because of superior mentality, showed a comprehensive grasp of their underlying philosophical concepts. Socrates refused to be initiated into the Eleusinian Mysteries, for knowing its principles without being a member of the order he realized that membership would seal his tongue. That the Mysteries of Eleusis were based upon great and eternal truths is attested by the veneration in which they were held by the great minds of the ancient world. M. Ouvaroff asks, "Would Pindar, Plato, Cicero, Epictetus, have spoken of them with such admiration, if the hierophant had satisfied himself with loudly proclaiming his own opinions, or those of his order?"


www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/index.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries
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The Republic (Plato) 08 Apr 2013 02:40 #13

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According to the op:
Socrates argues that the timocracy emerges from aristocracy due to a civil war breaking out among the ruling class and the majority.
The "dialectical forms of Government" should include Aristocracy before Timocracy, so how did we get to "Aristocracy"?
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The Republic (Plato) 08 Apr 2013 02:46 #14

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Mike wrote:
The "dialectical forms of Government" should include Aristocracy before Timocracy, so how did we get to "Aristocracy"?

Whatever label people want to use I suppose..

Advocates of aristocracy...

Aristotle (Greek: Ἀριστοτέλης Aristotélēs) (384 BC – 322 BC) was a Greek philosopher and polymath, a student of Plato and teacher of Alexander the Great. His writings cover many subjects, including physics, metaphysics, poetry, theater, music, logic, rhetoric, linguistics, politics, government, ethics, biology, and zoology. Together with Plato and Socrates (Plato's teacher), Aristotle is one of the most important founding figures in Western philosophy. Aristotle's writings were the first to create a comprehensive system of Western philosophy, encompassing morality, aesthetics, logic, science, politics, and metaphysics...


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristocracy
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The Republic (Plato) 08 Apr 2013 02:50 #15

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Plato, from the Wiki entry on OBSCURANTISM:
The obscurant favors restricting knowledge (publication, extension, dissemination) among the populace, for the “greater good” of the nation and the City-State. Classical Greece (6th–4th century BC) provides an original and powerful source of obscurantism in The Republic (c. 380 BC), wherein Plato proposes government via the Noble Lie — the necessary mythical justification for the status quo that guides the philosopher king in ruling society. To maintaining political stability, the Noble Lie naturally classifies people, determining their places in life and society, per the proportions of gold, silver, and iron, that each man and woman contained when formed in the earth; those meant to rule contained gold, whilst those meant to serve (soldiers, farmers, craftsmen et al.) respectively contained silver and iron.[8]

It is noteworthy that Politeía (“City-State Governance”), i.e. "governing," not "government," is the original title of The Republic. Historically, the idea that rulers and leaders know best is inherent to every form of totalitarianism. In the Skeptical Inquirer magazine (September–October 2004), the article “Obscurantism, Tyranny, and the Fallacy of Either Black or White” quotes Prof. Bergen Evans: “Obscurantism and tyranny go together.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obscurantism

So are you consciously obscure or mind fucked by the conspiracy genre LG?
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The Republic (Plato) 08 Apr 2013 03:00 #16

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Mike wrote:
So are you consciously obscure or mind fucked by the conspiracy genre LG?

Not at all,my mind is fine.People tend to overcomplicate matters and the minority lead the majority astray,usually for selfish purposes...everything is just a label at the end of the day...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind
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Last Edit: 08 Apr 2013 03:07 by LightGiver. Reason: spelling
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The Republic (Plato) 08 Apr 2013 03:13 #17

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The death of Socrates brings us, in a strange way, to the life of the Buddha. Socrates came to the conclusion that mental/spiritual enlightenment requires us to renounce bodily craving and our need to perpetually satisfy our sensual desires. Spiritual growth means mastering our desires, and letting go of the attachments of embodied life. In Plato, Socrates is nearly the antithesis of the Homeric hero. As he said himself, to philosophize is to learn how to die...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammapada
ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2010/06/dham...es-buddha-vs-desire/
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The Republic (Plato) 08 Apr 2013 03:17 #18

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LightGiver wrote:
Mike wrote:
So are you consciously obscure or mind fucked by the conspiracy genre LG?

Not at all,my mind is fine.People tend to overcomplicate matters and the minority lead the majority astray,usually for selfish purposes...everything is just a label at the end of the day...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind
So you're consciously obscure then?
Ah fair play to ya anyway ignore me keep posting these youtubes they're very entertaining :hmm:
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The Republic (Plato) 08 Apr 2013 03:35 #19

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Mike wrote:
So you're consciously obscure then?
Ah fair play to ya anyway ignore me keep posting these youtubes they're very entertaining :hmm:

The thought is coming from your side..you think what you want of others,I suppose that is all part and parcel of free thought...

Definition of OBSCURE

a : dark, dim
b : shrouded in or hidden by darkness

Avidyā (Sanskrit; Pāli: avijjā; Tibetan phonetic: ma rigpa) is commonly translated as "ignorance" or "delusion". It can be defined as not understanding the full meaning and implication of the four noble truths or as a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of reality...

The term vidya means "to see" or "to know". The term a is a negation. Therefore, avidya means to "not see" or "not know".

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obscure
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Last Edit: 08 Apr 2013 03:38 by LightGiver.
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The Republic (Plato) 08 Apr 2013 23:04 #20

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Mike wrote:
Ah fair play to ya anyway ignore me keep posting these youtubes they're very entertaining :hmm:



In philosophy, essentialism is the view that, for any specific entity (such as a group of people), there is a set of incidental attributes all of which are necessary to its identity and function. According to essentialism, a member of a specific group may possess other characteristics that are neither needed to establish its membership nor preclude its membership, but that essences do not simply reflect ways of grouping objects; they also result in properties of the object, as the object can be subjugated to smaller contexts.This view is contrasted with non-essentialism, which states that, for any given kind of entity, there are no specific traits which entities of that kind must possess...For Mayr, the healthful antithesis of essentialism in biology is "population thinking"...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentialism
The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you.. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!
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