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TOPIC: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong"

Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 11:43 #1

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www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/articl...0380901343125014963A
Householders who pay tradesmen in cash are "morally wrong", a Treasury minister said.

Exchequer Secretary David Gauke accused homeowners who give workers cash of helping them avoid tax.

He said: "Getting a discount with your plumber by paying cash in hand is something that is a big cost to the Revenue and means others have to pay more in tax.

"I think it is morally wrong. It is illegal for the plumber but it is pretty implicit in those circumstances that there is a reason why there is a discount for cash. That is a large part of the hidden economy."

The Government loses about £2 billion each year to the black economy as tradesmen fail to pay VAT or income tax by not declaring payments and keeping them "off the books".

Mr Gauke's comments, in an interview with The Daily Telegraph, come as HM Revenue and Customs plans an amnesty to encourage workmen to pay their fair share of taxes. Earlier, Mr Gauke announced tax advisers who use avoidance schemes that push the law to its limits will be named and shamed in a crackdown to help recoup £5 billion for the public purse.

His comments came as the Government launched a consultation paper on its planned reforms. It follows a wave of disclosures about the financial loopholes used by the rich and famous to legally side-step hefty tax bills.

Asked whether paying cash in hand was "morally wrong", Labour leader Ed Miliband said ministers should be focusing on large-scale tax avoidance.

Speaking on a visit to Paris, Mr Miliband said: "What I say is that the job of government is to pass the right laws to clamp down on tax avoidance - that's the most important thing of all.

"What I will be saying to the Government is that they should be clamping down on the large-scale tax avoidance which has been revealed in the past few days and I think that's what people want to see from the Government."
Yeah, it's terrible, I'm really worried about plumbers not paying enough tax.

www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/0...tion-corporation-tax
Amazon: £7bn sales, no UK corporation tax

Amazon.co.uk, Britain's biggest online retailer, generated sales of more than £3.3bn in the country last year but paid no corporation tax on any of the profits from that income – and is under investigation by the UK tax authorities.

Regulatory filings by parent company Amazon.com with the US securities and exchange commission (SEC) show the tax inquiry into the UK operation, which sells nearly one in four books sold in Britain, focuses on a period when ownership of the British business was transferred to a Luxembourg company.

The SEC filings, highlighted by Bookseller magazine, show that in the past three years, Amazon has generated sales of more than £7.6bn in the UK without attracting any corporation tax on the profits from those sales.

HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) refused to confirm it was investigating Amazon.co.uk, and its inquiries could be a routine audit. But Amazon's tax affairs are being investigated in the US, China, Germany, France, Japan and Luxembourg.

Amazon, which launched in the UK in 1998, is the UK's most popular retail website, with more visitors than Argos, Next and Tesco. It sells a vast array of goods other than books and recently won an award for offering the best customer service in the UK.

But the business that people voted for is not British-owned. The UK operation avoids tax as the ownership of the main Amazon.co.uk business was transferred to a Luxembourg company in 2006. The UK business is now owned by Amazon EU Sarl and the UK operation is classed only as an "order fulfilment" business. All payments for books, DVDs and other goods go directly to Luxembourg. The UK business is simply a delivery organisation.

The latest 2010 accounts for Amazon EU Sarl show the Luxembourg office employed just 134 people, but generated turnover of €7.5bn (£6.5bn). In the same year, the UK operation employed 2,265 people and reported a turnover of just £147m. According to the SEC filings, UK sales that year were between £2.3bn and £3.2bn. Amazon in the US has earned an average 3.5% profit margin over the past three years.

UK sales over the past three years, according to the SEC filings, were between £7.6bn and £10.3bn. If the same profit margin was applied, this would have generated taxable profits of £266m-£360m and yielded notional UK corporation tax of up to £100m.

However, in the nine years between 2003 and 2011, the UK-registered company has reported a cumulative net tax bill of just £3m – of which £1.9m was incurred in 2011. This is not the tax actually paid to HMRC; that information is not available because the UK company is not required to produce a cash flow statement.

The Guardian asked Amazon why it paid no UK corporation tax on the £3bn it takes out of the economy. The company declined to answer any specific questions on its tax affairs. Instead, in an email, it said: "Amazon EU serves tens of millions of customers and sellers throughout Europe from multiple consumer websites in a number of languages, dispatching products to all 27 countries in the EU. We have a single European headquarters in Luxembourg with hundreds of employees to manage this complex operation."

Richard Murphy, of the Tax Justice Network, said rewriting tax rules to prevent arrangements such as those used by Amazon.co.uk would be a huge task. "The key issue is, what is sold here and what is sold 'into' here? The answer is to deem distance sellers [as] resident in the UK with regard to their sales made here. That would be a big issue to take on."

Amazon would not comment on why it switched ownership of the UK business to Luxembourg in a complex manoeuvre that saw the UK company's shares change hands four times. However, the US parent company has suggested it may have been done to reduce the group's tax bill. In a 2006 SEC filing, the company referred to "establishing our European headquarters in Luxembourg, which we expect will benefit our effective tax rate over time".

Amazon's UK operations are also poised to benefit from Luxembourg ownership in the battle for the lucrative and fast-growing ebook market. Being based in Luxembourg means it can charge VAT on ebook sales at the local rate of 3% rather than the 20% VAT imposed on British-based ebook retailers.

In its most recent SEC annual filing, Amazon admits: "The effective tax rate in 2011, 2010, and 2009 was lower than the 35% US federal statutory rate primarily due to earnings of our subsidiaries outside of the US in jurisdictions where our effective tax rate is lower than in the US. Such earnings primarily relate to our European operations, which are headquartered in Luxembourg."

Amazon is currently disputing a tax bill of nearly £1bn imposed by US authorities relating to transfer pricing – a mechanism used by multinationals to trade goods and services among group companies.

It is also under fire in the US as it does not collect any sales taxes on products sold in states where it does not have an office or warehouse. It is believed to only collect sales tax in five states, but other states are now planning to alter state legislation to impose the sales tax on the company.
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 11:55 #2

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Speak­ing on a visit to Paris, Mr Miliband said: “What I say is that the job of gov­ern­ment is to pass the right laws to clamp down on tax avoid­ance — that’s the most impor­tant thing of all.

“What I will be say­ing to the Gov­ern­ment is that they should be clamp­ing down on the large-​scale tax avoid­ance which has been revealed in the past few days and I think that’s what peo­ple want to see from the Government.

This is the typical psychology they use...they tell 'the people' what 'the people' want.

It never actually comes from 'the people'

John Winston Howard was a master at this, former Australian PM, perhaps he taught them all a thing or two hey.

And a relevant song to close the post...

Y11
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 12:34 #3

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DIY :thumbup:
naivety attracts evil and evil attracts naivety
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 12:40 #4

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I don't think many people in the UK would agree with this. Everyone knows that the tax system is biased in favour of the rich.
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 12:45 #5

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He said: "Getting a discount with your plumber by paying cash in hand is something that is a big cost to the Revenue and means others have to pay more in tax.

No it isn't. It is a comparatively small cost. Compared to say the burden on the tax payer of the Olympics:

"A Sky investigation has revealed the final cost for the Games will be more than £12bn.
However, associated costs could make the bill as high as £24bn - a staggering 10 times the original estimate." Source Sky News

Or say queenie's recent party:

"The cost to the taxpayer for the London Olympics could hit £11 billion ($17.4 billion), rather than the expected £9.3 billion ($14.7 billion), according to a recent government watchdog report."

Just those two one off events amount to nearly 18 years of plumbers being paid in cash and not declaring it based on the £2 billion figure given in the article.
"I think it is morally wrong. It is illegal for the plumber but it is pretty implicit in those circumstances that there is a reason why there is a discount for cash. That is a large part of the hidden economy."

No it isn't. It's a comparatively small cost:

"In the UK's case £69.9 billion is lost on a yearly basis in what the Tax Justice Network call the "shadow economy." source New Statesman.

Let's not forget that the plumbers are not taking their cash overseas. They are ploughing it back into the UK economy daily.

I made a quip on UKplodOnline a while back that the Gov would no doubt soon be coming for us Self Employed.....seems it's another case of "many a true word..."

Now if we want to talk "hidden economy" Mr Government twat, let's look into the tax havens. Eh, eh.....
Last Edit: 24 Jul 2012 12:48 by dubs.
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 12:48 #6

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LesleyPumpshaft wrote:
I don't think many people in the UK would agree with this. Everyone knows that the tax system is biased in favour of the rich.

Yes, namely corporations and those at the top.

What miliband is talking about at the end of the article would be going after individuals lower on the ladder.

Rich vs wealth, whats the difference?

Y11
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 12:56 #7

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dubmeup wrote:
I made a quip on UKplodOnline a while back that the Gov would no doubt soon be coming for us Self Employed.....seems it's another case of "many a true word..."
Obviously, this is part of the reason, though not necessarily the main reason, for the cashless society. There's no black economy, eventually literally everything will be filtered through the Exchequer to private banks.

One of the things this person hasn't pointed out is that taking payment cash in hand facilitates business because it makes services / products more affordable, which makes people more likely to buy them. I moved flats recently, and the blokes who did it charged me £50, which I thought was pretty reasonable considering it took two and a half hours, and I didn't help in the slightest. Obviously if I hadn't paid cash in hand and they'd been charged tax it would have cost more. They will have gone on to spend that money on other goods that have VAT on, almost certainly some of it will go towards unbelievably highly-taxed petrol, so it's not as if they're completely avoiding taxation. The robbing bastards always get some of it back sooner or later, unless you literally buy nothing except food, and even then they're proposing 'unhealthy' foods should have VAT added to them.
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 13:13 #8

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
Obviously, this is part of the reason, though not necessarily the main reason, for the cashless society. There's no black economy, eventually literally everything will be filtered through the Exchequer to private banks.
Absolutely! Total 100% control of all that is fiat based is the objective. Even the second hand goods market will be effectively outlawed, as in car boot sales and their ilk. That is unless of course each and every person must have some form of chip that facillitates the monitoring of such transactions.

Oh wait.......hang on a mo.......
One of the things this person hasn't pointed out is that taking payment cash in hand facilitates business because it makes services / products more affordable, which makes people more likely to buy them. I moved flats recently, and the blokes who did it charged me £50, which I thought was pretty reasonable considering it took two and a half hours, and I didn't help in the slightest. Obviously if I hadn't paid cash in hand and they'd been charged tax it would have cost more.

Tbh having done a fair bit of removals, that price astounds me! I really don't see how it'd be possible to stay afloat at that level. Even a 3.5 tonne truck costs an arm and a leg to keep on the road for example.
They will have gone on to spend that money on other goods that have VAT on, almost certainly some of it will go towards unbelievably highly-taxed petrol, so it's not as if they're completely avoiding taxation. The robbing bastards always get some of it back sooner or later, unless you literally buy nothing except food, and even then they're proposing 'unhealthy' foods should have VAT added to them.

Absolutely! As I said before the fiat stays within the economy and as it's passed around, tax is payable in nearly every transaction.
Last Edit: 24 Jul 2012 13:13 by dubs.
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 13:35 #9

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dubmeup wrote:
Absolutely! Total 100% control of all that is fiat based is the objective. Even the second hand goods market will be effectively outlawed, as in car boot sales and their ilk. That is unless of course each and every person must have some form of chip that facillitates the monitoring of such transactions.
I was thinking as I wrote my previous post that such transactions will become highly problematical. At the moment for a removal, for example, there is a tacit acceptance that the work gets done then you pay up. You don't make anything other than a verbal contract, so having no cash payments would obviously complicate matters.
Tbh having done a fair bit of removals, that price astounds me! I really don't see how it'd be possible to stay afloat at that level. Even a 3.5 tonne truck costs an arm and a leg to keep on the road for example.
They charged £25 per hour, it took a bit over two hours, and they just said "call it £50, mate". Who am I to disagee, eh?
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 13:50 #10

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
Tbh having done a fair bit of removals, that price astounds me! I really don't see how it'd be possible to stay afloat at that level. Even a 3.5 tonne truck costs an arm and a leg to keep on the road for example.
They charged £25 per hour, it took a bit over two hours, and they just said "call it £50, mate". Who am I to disagee, eh?
I wouldn't have disagreed either. I do hope you gave the porters a tip :D
If you break that job down though, the going rate for a porter is about £7 ph. Assuming it was a two man job that's 4 man hours-£28.
Leaving £22 which has to pay for the diesel, upkeep of the truck, advertising, phones etc. It's slim, very slim. Was this a man with a van thing or an actual removals firm? I only ask cos I'm nosey :)
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 14:01 #11

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Yes cash transactions cost the treasury - is that morally wrong? working within the premise of the system we are already under rather then a different one my answer has to be no more morally wrong then any other form of tax avoidance.

Again purely as a comment on the system as it stands - whilst the system lacks transparency and accountability - whilst people see the huge individual earners dodge paying tax and that is not even getting started on the corporations morals will go out the window.

I would also imagine that were taxes not being spent immorally then people would be less inclined to dodge them.
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 14:05 #12

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
I made a quip on UKplodOnline a while back that the Gov would no doubt soon be coming for us Self Employed.....seems it's another case of "many a true word..."
Obviously, this is part of the reason, though not necessarily the main reason, for the cashless society. There's no black economy, eventually literally everything will be filtered through the Exchequer to private banks.

One of the things this person hasn't pointed out is that taking payment cash in hand facilitates business because it makes services / products more affordable, which makes people more likely to buy them. I moved flats recently, and the blokes who did it charged me £50, which I thought was pretty reasonable considering it took two and a half hours, and I didn't help in the slightest. Obviously if I hadn't paid cash in hand and they'd been charged tax it would have cost more. They will have gone on to spend that money on other goods that have VAT on, almost certainly some of it will go towards unbelievably highly-taxed petrol, so it's not as if they're completely avoiding taxation. The robbing bastards always get some of it back sooner or later, unless you literally buy nothing except food, and even then they're proposing 'unhealthy' foods should have VAT added to them.

Correct, this is the angle that the bankers will use to persuade politicians its a good idea.
This the whole while politicians remain totally clueless about printing their own money LOL!
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 14:10 #13

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I doubt anything will ever cost 'the treasury', t, though I get your point. What really annoys them is that they can't see it and have little or no control over it. That should tell you all you really need to know about our lovely, fluffy, gubment. This will also become a near impossibility when everything becomes electronic based, hence "we declare this kind of thing immoral" etc. etc.

I agree with nov. Since when do governments have feck all to do with morals? I will say one thing for the current lot (who are really just the old lot in different colours) they are very, very good at all this spin rubbish. People are starting to see through it though, en masse. Kind of makes me wonder what they have in store as a plan B.
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Last Edit: 24 Jul 2012 14:10 by Abs.
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 14:10 #14

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dubmeup wrote:
I wouldn't have disagreed either. I do hope you gave the porters a tip :D
If you break that job down though, the going rate for a porter is about £7 ph. Assuming it was a two man job that's 4 man hours-£28.
Leaving £22 which has to pay for the diesel, upkeep of the truck, advertising, phones etc. It's slim, very slim. Was this a man with a van thing or an actual removals firm? I only ask cos I'm nosey :)
I got the impression that it was a joint-owned firm, I think it was halfway between the two poles, they obviously do numerous removals, but I think they do other jobs as well. As we were driving in the van, one of the guys pointed out some flashy car that he was buying, so I assume he had more money than me, but people do tend to splash out a lot on those lumps of tin on wheels that get you from the A to B. I used to live in a block of flats, and the guy who was the security guard / concierge for the management company used to drive a Porsche. I remember him complaining about it breaking down and costing an arm and a leg to fix, and I was thinking: "Yeah. You're a security guard. Don't buy a fucking Porsche. Simple really".
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 14:13 #15

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all i take is cash. someone asks me what name to put on the check... "cash"
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 14:34 #16

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
I wouldn't have disagreed either. I do hope you gave the porters a tip :D
If you break that job down though, the going rate for a porter is about £7 ph. Assuming it was a two man job that's 4 man hours-£28.
Leaving £22 which has to pay for the diesel, upkeep of the truck, advertising, phones etc. It's slim, very slim. Was this a man with a van thing or an actual removals firm? I only ask cos I'm nosey :)
I got the impression that it was a joint-owned firm, I think it was halfway between the two poles, they obviously do numerous removals, but I think they do other jobs as well. As we were driving in the van, one of the guys pointed out some flashy car that he was buying, so I assume he had more money than me, but people do tend to splash out a lot on those lumps of tin on wheels that get you from the A to B. I used to live in a block of flats, and the guy who was the security guard / concierge for the management company used to drive a Porsche. I remember him complaining about it breaking down and costing an arm and a leg to fix, and I was thinking: "Yeah. You're a security guard. Don't buy a fucking Porsche. Simple really".

Some guys really luv their cars... so if he loves his car - let him, dont judge him on his crappy job. He aint his job - he is a guy that is into cars, , If that is what he is into - good luck to him ! :D ( i wish he had a better job, actually, so he can enjoy his car better..
Novum would understand, lol)
I aint into cars at all, to me they are just like what u said, tin on wheels A to B, etc. but i do feel for this chappy who loves his car!

who knows what else he is into...may be incredibly interesting guy... could be writing a book for all i know. :yeahno: :give:


Oh yeah, back to Original Topic... that gubberment creep probably earns an absolute fortune, all his taxes hidden in the Cayman Islands, or wherever Krusty the Clown keeps them.

I am on the tradesmens side. They have so many overheads.. they deserve a few lil perks. Even if they spend it on beer , it helps keep the pubs going!
Go tradesmen go! :cheers:
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 14:39 #17

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I would say wub is judging him on what he can afford to own, lol :)

I guess in a way its like these people who bought houses with 12x their salary on the mortgage etc.

I would argue strongly that prices would be far more reasonable if credit was not available.
If banks were not fractional reserve then we could well see house prices tumble to around 1 years average salary.
Less than that for red brick sardine tins, they're just not worth it imho.
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 15:07 #18

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curtaincat wrote:
Novum would understand, lol

Would I :hmm:

Yeah maybe once upon a time, ok :larf:

But was all about the adrenalin tbh, now with cameras and vehicles being confiscated by the crown for accidentally spinning a wheel, fast cars are a waste of time here, and people are realising this.

Is no wonder the ferrari dealership on glen osmond road finally shut, was only a matter of time that even affluent people realised that the crown wouldnt hesitate in taking their car permanently for minor traffic violations. I think they sell Suzukis now :pmsl:

The porsche dealership is tumbleweeds too.

And new HSVs are becoming a rare sight, which i dont mind either because they are an overweight pos and damn ugly. :larf:
Y11
Last Edit: 24 Jul 2012 15:10 by novum.
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 15:17 #19

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novum wrote:
curtaincat wrote:
Novum would understand, lol

Would I :hmm:

Yeah maybe once upon a time, ok :larf:

But was all about the adrenalin tbh, now with cameras and vehicles being confiscated by the crown for accidentally spinning a wheel, fast cars are a waste of time here, and people are realising this.

Is no wonder the ferrari dealership on glen osmond road finally shut, was only a matter of time that even affluent people realised that the crown wouldnt hesitate in taking their car permanently for minor traffic violations. I think they sell Suzukis now :pmsl:

The porsche dealership is tumbleweeds too.

And new HSVs are becoming a rare sight, which i dont mind either because they are an overweight pos and damn ugly. :larf:

Well, I am glad u got past that car fixation , young man, learnt ur lesson at last, :aargh: :rofl:
Yeah, they are stealing peeps cars, suck innit. I havent been glen os rd way for ages, but even the rich get their cars impounded, but they wont crush them, just steal them. crazy ...

I dont think wub will take umbrage wiv me, he knows that i knows that he is super coolio :fro: :sorry: :notworthy:

and i know what andyh means , too.

I , personally, being such an angel and saint have never bought beyond me humble means. ( even tho companies try to make me, i just say, feck off... pay my loan you wankers) :evil:

I will get out of here b4 i sound even more stoopid :spank: :umm: :rofl:
Last Edit: 24 Jul 2012 15:18 by curtaincat. Reason: how the f do u spell umbrage????? yikes
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Re: Paying Tradesmen in Cash "Morally Wrong" 24 Jul 2012 15:34 #20

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curtaincat wrote:
Well, I am glad u got past that car fixation , young man, learnt ur lesson at last, :aargh: :rofl:

Its been quite a few years now cc, i aint interested, so i dont know where ur getting ur info from :yeahno:

And was never a fixation either :hmm: :larf:

They are just a piece of tin, an accessory perhaps at best. Like a good suit. I wish i could do without a car even but i cant at the mo. I hate giving money to the fukkers now.
Y11
Last Edit: 24 Jul 2012 15:34 by novum.
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