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TOPIC: The World Debt Thread

The World Debt Thread 25 Apr 2013 22:27 #41

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WUBWUB, you said "I have explained this several times", where have YOU explained it, if I wanted RT I wouldn't have sold my television, are you telling me Max Keiser has explained it and you believe he's the most accurate commentator on the economy?
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The World Debt Thread 25 Apr 2013 22:42 #42

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Mike wrote:
WUBWUB, you said "I have explained this several times", where have YOU explained it, if I wanted RT I wouldn't have sold my television, are you telling me Max Keiser has explained it and you believe he's the most accurate commentator on the economy?
I believe he's better qualified than me that's for sure!
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The World Debt Thread 25 Apr 2013 23:11 #43

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ok fair enough, thanks for your recommendation for Max Keiser, I'll maybe watch it at some point.
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The World Debt Thread 25 Apr 2013 23:53 #44

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Mike wrote:
ok fair enough, thanks for your recommendation for Max Keiser, I'll maybe watch it at some point.

Jesus h fucking keerist :facepalm:
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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The World Debt Thread 26 Apr 2013 00:20 #45

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
Mike wrote:
What should be done about the debt, do we need to start trying to pay it back?

You seem to think global debt levels warrant perpetual repetition but I don't really know why, what are you trying to make "sink in" to everybody's mind?
I have explained this several times, but the answers to your question are within these videos:



I must say I liked the first one, it contradicts a vulgarization i read the other day, that "money = debt", in that video the narrator highlights the fact people buy and sell debt for money, therefore debt is a marketable commodity with a monetary value.

Now money is also a commodity, with a Social Value, but money = debt is a vulgarization.

I might watch the second one but I find talk of Sovereignty irritating and ideologically charged, overall I find Max Keiser appeals to people's emotions and explains things in a slightly infantile, ostentatious manner, it's hard to take him seriously sometimes, and much of what he says appears to be the product of him being too worked up about something or other. the fact he was an investment banker and obviously still retains the patter of a slick salesman really put's me off the guy, I like Stacey Herbert, I like Thom Hartman, but imo the rest of RT is shite.
Last Edit: 26 Apr 2013 00:25 by Mike.
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The World Debt Thread 02 May 2013 12:20 #46

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Worlddebt8


The world is now $230,960,248,882 further in debt that it was one month ago, and $80,895,140,815 more than it was eleven days ago when I began this thread. This is just government debt, this doesn't include off the balance sheet liabilities, unfunded liabilities, personal debt, the debt of institutions, banking debt, or trading debt such as that incurred via derivatives.
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The World Debt Thread 02 May 2013 12:35 #47

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OK, this might be back to basics stuff but how can the whole globe be in debt? Even if it's just digits on a screen surely the credit and debt has to cancel each other out :think:
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The World Debt Thread 02 May 2013 12:49 #48

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oioioi wrote:
OK, this might be back to basics stuff but how can the whole globe be in debt? Even if it's just digits on a screen surely the credit and debt has to cancel each other out :think:
Quite a complicated issue to get into, but there is a long discussion of this here:

www.positivemoney.org/how-banks-create-money/balance-sheets/

The summary is here, if you want something shorter!:
Let’s review the key points that we have learnt:

The ‘money’ in your bank account does not represent physical cash that you can hold in your hand; it is simply an accounting liability from the bank to you, and only exists as a number in a computer system.

We now use these bank liabilities / accounting entries to make payments for over 99% of all transactions (by value). Therefore we could describe bank liabilities, bank credit and bank deposits (which are all the same thing) as being equivalent to money in the modern day.

Banks create bank deposits (the money in your account) when they make loans. They add liabilities to the borrower’s account, and simultaneously add an asset (the loan contract) to their balance sheet.

The repayable principal of the loan is recorded as an asset. However, the interest payable isn’t recorded as an asset on the balance sheet, but is just recorded as a profit as and when the interest is paid.

The money that banks use to pay each other – central bank reserves – is itself created out of nothing as an accounting entry by the Bank of England. The liability that the Bank of England creates to the commercial bank is balanced out by the asset that the bank posts as ‘collateral’.

In summary, what we now use as ‘money’ – the numbers in our account – is simply accounting entries made by banks. These accounting entries make up over 97% of all the money that we use today.
There is no relationship between the amount of money in circulation, the amount of debt that exists, and any actual, tangible assets. It's all completely arbitrary. Just to give you one small example, think about something like equity release. Your house has a theoretical value, so you secure a loan against the supposed value of your house from a bank, which they transfer to you instantly, and then they charge you interest against the 'money' that they've lent you, which they've just magicked out of thin air. It has no relation to anything that is actually real, but yet it actually happens in reality all the time! Don't forget as well, they're lending more 'money' on top on that based on what you pay them, and so on.

If someone gave you the right tomorrow to either print pieces of paper with £10 written on them and call them money (which is no less legal tender than existing banknotes), or gave you a billion dollar credit line to distribute digitally, or both, you could start lending people 'money' immediately (and you'd be advised to move back to Britain, where is no formal requirement for you to even hold anything in reserve). Pretty soon people would owe you billions, and you'd have nothing, but you could repossess their actual physical assets if they didn't give you back the nothing that you'd lent them!

I hope that's clear...
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Last Edit: 02 May 2013 12:51 by wake_up_bomb.
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The World Debt Thread 02 May 2013 13:01 #49

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Cheers but I (pretty much) get all that already. What I can't get my head around is how the globe is in debt. I assume it is someone from the globe that we are indebted to ergo overall the globe shouldn't be able to be in debt unless there are alien bankers operating from outside of earth.

What I'm saying is if one banker was owed all the global debt surely that shows up as wealth for him/her.

:dunno:

It may just be semantics but I'm slightly on the autistic scale when it comes to misuse of words so if it is forgive my pedantry.
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Last Edit: 02 May 2013 13:02 by oioioi.
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The World Debt Thread 02 May 2013 13:23 #50

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Well the above figures are just govt debt.
So its money created via debt to central banks when govts take out loans.
The central banks just create an accounting entry out of thin air, et voila the govt has 'money' which they spend on whatever (of late to give to bankers lol)

The money is repaid eventually to the same central banks with interest at whatever the central bank rate is.

the economy has to expand though indefinitely for this to be possible, in todays jobless recovery there is no economic expansion, just two points of view, one which says that austerity will reduce the amount needed to pay back the debt and therefore let them get on top of things and another which states that they must borrow even more to trigger economic expansion and then debt payback from the returns made.

In reality both pov are totally fucked. As the debt figures rise way beyond any ability to payback neither austerity nor more debt will make a shite of difference. This result was a mathematical inevitability over time anyway as infinite expansion is an impossibility, the accumulation of wealth amongst a small number of elites has simply sped up this end result.

If anyone says otherwise then they are in complete denial of mathematics and talking out of their arse. Something politicians and bankers are good at and something millions of people are good at believing because they're too stupid to bother taking a look at it.

the economic system we have had has served its purpose and is now redundant, it will have to be replaced with something new no matter what. IMHO this has always been known but something either central bankers have planned for or just didn't give a damn about because it was way off in the future at the time.

The 'solution' (from the bankers point of view) is either global debt writeoff and start again with the same system or moving to a 100% digital global economy with no oversight of fractional reserve banking and many other trading systems such as hedge funds etc.

Either option could mean war or totalitarianism etc etc. Basically every decent human beings worst fucking nightmare.
I see nothing short of some incredible global awakening or whatever the hell as stopping this. People would have to completely abandon all monetary concepts and evolve past this stuff if they really want a proper 'solution'.

its just a question of time now, how long can the can be kicked etc.Eventually some of the larger state govts and debt will go under, Ireland,Italy,Spain and Portugal are all in the immediate firing line.
Then there's all the eastern european states and the UK itself is in dire straits along with france.
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The World Debt Thread 02 May 2013 13:31 #51

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I imagine any vast wealth like that would be hidden away in assets & front companies & various other schemes designed by rich people to stash their wealth without people knowing.

One thing is for sure, being a debtor & a creditor at the same time is a fucking scam!
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The World Debt Thread 02 May 2013 13:47 #52

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Space Bandit wrote:
being a debtor & a creditor at the same time is a fucking scam!

Thats exactly whats happening yep.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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The World Debt Thread 11 May 2013 17:58 #53

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Just to remind you:

Worlddebt


The world is $68,270,034,185 further in debt than the last time I posted nine days ago. The world is $299,230,283,067 further in debt than when I began this thread 21 days ago.

The debt increased by over $41,000,000 in the time it took to type this.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 11 May 2013 17:59 by wake_up_bomb.
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The World Debt Thread 21 May 2013 10:25 #54

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Worlddebt

The world is now $370,795,729,050 further in debt than it was one month ago. That’s three-hundred and seventy billion, seven hundred and ninety five million, seven hundred and twenty nine thousand and fifty.

To put this into perspective, the amount that the world's debt is increasing per month is more than the nominal GDP of all but the top thirty nations on the planet:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 21 May 2013 10:26 by wake_up_bomb.
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The World Debt Thread 03 Jun 2013 10:36 #55

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Worlddebt2


The world is now $466,941,684,196 further in debt than it was six weeks ago. That’s four-hundred and sixty six billion, nine hundred and forty one million, six hundred and eighty four thousand, one hundred and ninety six. This is nearly half a trillion dollars.

To put this into perspective, the amount that the world's debt is increasing per six weeks is more than the nominal GDP of all but the top twenty-six nations on the planet:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
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The World Debt Thread 19 Jun 2013 16:40 #56

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WUB i'm giving this thread a little bump right now to keep it on page 1 in general.

We got some things to talk about here in regards to how people view all this debt...
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The World Debt Thread 19 Jun 2013 17:08 #57

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I will post an update in a couple of days time when it will be two months since the OP. In the meantime, read the following:

sanctumzone.co.uk/forum/todays-news/9235...in-debt-by-2040.html
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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The World Debt Thread 21 Jun 2013 12:21 #58

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It's now about nine weeks since the first image in this thread was taken. Here is the situation today:

K0lc


The world is now $600,504,992,813 further in debt than it was nine weeks ago. That’s six-hundred billion, five-hundred and four million, nine-hundred and ninety-two thousand, eight-hundred and thirteen dollars.

This is nearly equal to the GDP of Switzerland:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

There are only nineteen nations on the planet who have a bigger GDP than this figure. Bear in mind that this is merely the amount that the acknowledged level of government debt has increased in nine weeks. These are the most optimistic figures available.

Massive manipultation took place in the markets yesterday; we’re really now moving into the final phase of economic meltdown.

I will update this thread in due course; we will be reaching a trillion dollar increase in the baseline figure from when the thread started in a matter of weeks.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
Last Edit: 21 Jun 2013 12:23 by wake_up_bomb.
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The World Debt Thread 22 Jun 2013 01:56 #59

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WUB can you understand why the average person would not take a debt of that magnitude serious?

Or just look at such a massive debt as a scam by western countries to industrialize their nations?
"The Great Liberator" aka #1 Anarchist
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The World Debt Thread 22 Jun 2013 02:24 #60

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www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

"Fifty One Trillion, Two Hundred and Forty One Billion, Nine Hundred and Seventy Eight Million, Six Hundred and Seventy Two Thousand Five Hundred and Seventy One US Dollars" :O
The Figures




Interest per year:
£27,466,672,088

Population:
61,500,000

GDP:
£1,615,710,684,690

Interest per second:
£871

Citizen's Share:
£18,152

Debt as % of GDP:
69.09%
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