ronisron wrote:
This is where I think the 'Zionist' stuff gets totally out of hand. Zionism is not 'the name for their ideology'. Zionism is one thing. If Joe Biden says 'I am a Zionist'...and? Does that mean everything he does is about Zionism? Does that mean he 'is a Zionist' and that's what he is and totally defines him in some way? When Kennedy said 'Ich bin ein Berliner' (sic) did it mean he was suddenly German? Of course he's going to say he's a Zionist - he supports Israel. It would be a helluva lot weirder if he said 'I am a member of Hamas'.
Farming out the entire world to private corporations has nothing to do with Zionism. Making the rich richer and the poor poorer has noithing to do with Zionism. Cutting public services has nothing to do with Zionism. Union members in Columbia turning up dead has nothing to do with Zionism. And the only reason Zionism is at all important is because Israel is slap bang in an area of the world that has a very heavy concentration of the single most important resource on the planet upon which all our lives heavily depend and without which civilisation would totally collapse and a wave of mass starvation extremely quickly and it's aggressive, well armed and up for a fight with Muslims any time.

People IMO take this Zionism business to ludicrous extremes. Does Joe Biden really sit around thinking of Zionism? Of course he doesn't. He sits around thinking of his career, keeping the Democrats in power and what board of directors he's going to end up on.

And I thought the British Israelites were basically a 19th century thing.

And Zionism is a belief in the Jewish homeland that in and of itself has no necessary political inclination - Zionists have historically ranged from very right wing to very left wing, have been both religious and secular.
National Socialism is a specific ideology that combines socialism, nationalism and eugenics into a specific vision of how the state should be run.
They are in no way similar.

How the Zionists could possibly be behind the Holocauist (let alone other things) I really have no idea....

batou wrote:
It's not mandatory for you to read it you know.

i dont think i could if i tried

For the record -and for those who are bored with the subject, yet can't stop reading and posting- I'm not talking about race or anti-Semitism. I don't think there are any racists or anti-Semites here (not even you Ronisron; because, whether you believe it or not: yes, I know the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism) so there would be no point coming here to rant about it.

I'm talking about my experience in the DI Forum (my last experience), which happens to be a similar experience to that of many other people here, and which I thought they would be interested to hear.... that's all

dogsmilk wrote:

Kumatora wrote:

dogsmilk wrote:
Brilliant post, can't wait to hear what the RonisRon has to say about this!

cant fault anything dogsmilk has said.

This thread has really helped to cement a few things for me - I believe that everyone on this planet has a right to live without fear of their lives and without persecution. I believe that everyone should be free to practice the religion of their choice or none thereof - I believe that everyone should be able to feed, clothe and shelter themselves and their dependents and that people should be free to express their sexuality between consenting adults. Furthermore I believe that the power to achieve these basic rights lies within each and everyone of us - The sad fact is that not everyone believes in these basic premises - and it is that - not the elites - not some reptile influence and no one particular group that stops this from happening.

Whilst anyone of us seeks to belittle, besmirch or impose our world view on anyone else we are fucked - in saying this I am saying that others who do not think the same way as me are wrong - which goes against what I am saying - its all circular - until everyone of their own free will and accord can come to an agreement as to the very basics everything else is merely propaganda aimed to influence others into seeing the world in the same way they do.

thoreau wrote:

thoreau wrote:
A fantastic point and a bit of a headfuck. There are certain behaviours that I think the vast majority already have a consensus are just plain wrong. You could sit me around a debating table forever and I will never come around to the way of thinking that justifies persecuting another due to skin colour, sexuality, gender etc for example. I am happy to contradict my view of how we could get along on those subjects.
Everything else, we should be able to achieve consensus by discussion.

.

dubmeup wrote:
does my head right in for sure.

I had this discussion with my mum once about the human rights act - I was saying that I thought that certain people can give up those rights - an example being paedophiles and murders - but as she pointed out to me once you start imposing limits to human rights you are no longer actually talking about 'human' rights - you are talking about certain humans rights - I argued for ages about this with her but am beginning to understand her point - I feel as if we are in an all or nothing situation - where we either all are bestowed the basics or we carry on as we are.

We can sit here and argue - its the jews - its not the jews all day and for every word posted someone somewhere has died because those most basic of human needs for survival has not been met - for whatever reason - it puts things in perspective for me.

I cannot help but feel that jewish peoples have as much right to have a state or home where they can 'rule' themselves as anyone else - does that make me a zionist? I think everyone has a right to a home and to be free from persecution so how can I not want to see that right for jewish peoples as well as any other group? On the other hand I loathe the way that israel has acted - its human rights abuses and its racism - does that make me a self hating zionist? I prefer to think of myself as a humanist - I want humans to be able to coexist with respect and with tolerance - I say tolerance because we all have to tolerate things its part of what living with others is about - Mr thoreau has to tolerate my abundance of craft mess - I tolerate his star wars mmo addiction - I see no reason why we can't learn to tolerate and respect eachothers beliefs even if we do not share them - losing that 'ego' that has to be right - and there goes that headfuck again.

I cannot enforce my views on people - I can only make an argument for why I think they are right and be that which I wish to see. I can argue against discrimination and hate where I see it - but I cannot force others to stop being imho total and utter tools. The dif is full of tools from the top down - tools that are slowly but surely removing any opposition to the position they wish to push.

No matter the difference of opinion here I feel as if we each have a voice - we may be arguing over the same things but we are not attempting to push only the one agenda - which is what a forum is about. I can but admire that - as it is the closest I have come to seeing my world view in action.

dogsmilk wrote:
Look I threw something at you yesterday that varied from your script, and you just said "I don't have time to read that". And here you are again, pro Zionizing all over the place....

Not many people believe the above, not even you. It's propaganda. It's supposed to seem all fiery and truthful, but it's bullshit.
When someone says "I am a Zionist" it means someone is a Zionist, that's basically it, but great job throwing in the Kennedy "aside", not that it validates your argument in any way..... Zionist does not = Jew, or Israel. No matter how hard you beat the drum. 'K?

@oioioi, the reason it's important, is because the Holocaust is used to validate genocide. Exposing 9-11 is just as important, for the same reasons. In 1919, American Jewish publications were talking about a Holocaust of "6 million Jews" in the Ukraine.

morris108.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/6mil.gif?w=700&h=934

They tried to push the idea of 6 million Jews being murdered after WWI as well, but it didn't work.... so they did it after WWII, and this one is doing fine so far. There's something to that 6 million number. Of course Jews were murdered in WWII, and it's not right. It was equally not right that anyone else was killed either.

@guevarista... there you go buddy!

im glad you guys have that way of thinking and its got to be that way some time in the future. maybe really far away. you can get all mad about racism, but its just how some people think and its just a pissing match in that nobody changes their views. it takes riots and protest and mass disobedience to get changes to happen. and it takes generations of people to be born into the change for it to be normal life. have you guys ever changed a racists mind? i like to think maybe someone was undecided and read about it, and you changed their view. but once people get a mindset of being victims and hating crackers/darkies, its like they become retarded. something breaks. you're talking to broken people. i dont knowwhat they really want. they are dying out, at least in the western world. maybe its in full reverse and whitey is going under. people get scared about that shit too.
its a flaw, or a mind virus. we have always been killing and hating. its a terrible species capable of massacres and torture. no other mammals do that. thats insect territory. fuck reptiles.

ronisron wrote:
I live in the here and now ron. In the here and now for instance I can see that the ongoing persecution of the Palestinians and expansion into what became Palestinian territory is plain fricking wrong and must be stopped. As I'm sure you do too.

Any justification for the actions of the Israeli State is completely irrelevant to me. I don't need to hear it to know what they are doing is wrong. With that in mind, what difference does it make whether the holocaust did or didnt happen? What led us to here and now is not really important, what is important is what's going on now. Is this not the case?

batou wrote:
You cannot change their minds; it's an irrational hatred, so there's no point on even trying. The best you can do, and what everyone should do -if they really are for a world without such irrational hatreds- is to expose their lies and prevent others from being infected with such nasty mental sicknesses.

The main problem with racism and anti-Semitism is that they're highly contagious (even I got infected for a short time ), so standing on the sides and doing nothing is the same as allowing it to spread.

ronisron wrote:
Ron, if you present something late in the evening I've never seen before - I'm going to say "I don't know about that" - I'm not just going to make something up if I've never seen something before. I do not pretend to be the font of all knowledge and if I don't know about something I say I don't know about it. That also means I do not simply take things at face value. Like I find it wildly implausible this 'hidden Holocaust' of Jews hasn't been noticed by anybody in the world apart from some web page you found. Common sense tells it's very high on the bollocks probability scale.

And I am not 'pro-Zionising' -how am I 'pro-Zionising' simply by disputing the awesome importance you ascribe to Zionism? I am disputing this notion many people seem to hold that the entire planet somehow revolves around Zionism. Zionism is a component of the world inextricably linked to Israel, and the world is about a helluva lot more than Israel.

Now I'm not saying hedoesn't believe what he is saying, but he is a politician. It is the job of a politician to say things that appeal to people you want to appeal to and what it is in your best interest to be saying. I am sure Joe Biden is supportive of Israel. I am sure he ';is a Zionist' in a pro-Israeli sense. I seriously doubt Zionism defines his entire existence as a politician or he goes round saying "Zionist" when asked what he is. I'm sure he says "I am a Democrat" a hell of a lot more often - aren't you??
Why is it that whenever a politician comes out with a line that fits what people wish to believe all of a sudden it becomes 100% sincere and a defining characteristic of their lives? On one hand people don't believe a word that comes out of their mouths, then Joe Biden says he's a Zionist and suddenly it's irrefutable proof of...something or other.
To stress, that does mean I don't think he does not really regard himself as 'a Zionist', but the weighting being ascribed to him saying it is simply ludicrous.


Oh and Ron, you are referring to a newspaper article referring to Jews being at risk. And not "6 million specifically" as you can see here.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/six-million.html

You have been suckered by the selective presentation of information by people who like to pretend there is something magical about 6 million Jews.

Guevarista wrote:
This is a great example - like R D Laing spent time at Tavistock and Tavistock Press published work by David Cooper. Oh hang on - they were progessive types so were probably 'cutural Marxists' or something.

dubmeup wrote:
Those who don't pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it. There are Holocaust museums, movies, laws against questioning it, that are current, that are here and now. That's a few more reasons why. That's it. The Zionists created the Holocaust, and like Rabbi Ahron Cohen said "If the Zionists didn't have Hitler, they would have created him...." they did create Hitler, from what I can tell.

This is not about racism, this is about truth. Anyone who blames the Jewish people for the Holocaust lie being perpetuated is not thinking things through very well, nor is anyone who tries to convince people that questioning the Holocaust is simply hatred of the Jews. Jewish people are not responsible; it's like hating all Americans for the actions of their Gov't and military, or hating all Brits for the actions of the Queen. Check the link I posted above, you can see that Jewish people were directly targeted with the info that there were 6 million Jews dead in a Holocaust after WWI; it wasn't believed, it didn't catch on. So they wrre targeted again in a much more direct way in WWII.

oioioi wrote:
I'm pretty sure you have managed to open a thread before what is your problem this time? No one is stopping you discussing anything that I'm aware of. Wheater people will entertain you is a whole different issue and whether they provide you with the answers you seek is yet another issue. Knock yourself out.

As has been said it seems the Jewish folk that did suffer in the second world war regardless of how, where or when are being used for political gain, rather than being treated with respect. The people who were not of the Jewish faith that suffered the same or similar fates don't seem to be recognised by some. As has been said the reason people question things such as this is the same reason they question JFK, 9-11 and all the other events, which are clearly not evidenced correctly, and are or have been politically exploited. The numbers are irrelevant it is the act and the reasoning for the event and the subsequent false historical records that people question. I guess the crux of the matter is that most people simply don't like being lied to whoever is telling the lies!

thoreau wrote: