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TOPIC: This is What we Have to Look Forward to

Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:16 #141

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Guevarista wrote:
andyh wrote:
wake_up_bomb wrote:
I don't have any beliefs, though, I'm only interested in facts and evidence.

^This is an awakened enlightened human being and this is what shills would like to shut up.
Who has ever tried to shut up WUB?
As far as I can see he tried to shut me up, he tried to shut up Dogsmilk yesterday, and now he's going after RA, all of whom advocate an evidence based reassessment of Conspiracy theorist "logic" :think:

lol take a look back through your own posts and those I've mentioned.
He didn't try to shut up DM btw, merely point out what he saw/inferred was transgression.
There is nothing diversionary about his post.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:20 #142

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
.......... wrote:
I agree with this and will also take a step forward to try an explain my "skepticism" better to WUB.
I don't have any personal problem with you. What I am trying to explain to you is that if you've coached kids in basketball and they've phoned you up at home like a parent, as you stated elsewhere, then you've done more for America than Obama! That's all I'm trying to make you understand.

The thing is that i was being very honest with you when i told you about when i was 19 or 20 and how the election with Gore, Nader and Bush caused the Iraq war. To this day i believe that Dick Cheney, Haliburton & PNAC caused that war. I posted the video where Bush talks about Saddam trying to kill his dad ect. I voted for Kerry in 2004 in hopes to end that. As i type this i honestly believe that if Romney were to get that job the shock and Awe of Iran would be getting ready to start the New Year.

What i'm trying to say is that if i did not vote for Obama and then Romney & Netanyahu destroy Iran i'm guilty.

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Last Edit: 30 Dec 2012 20:24 by ...........
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:24 #143

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They're all the same RA.
Even Ron Paul is a part of it.

I would wager Gary Johnson is not. The same applies to Dennis Kucinich.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:27 #144

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andyh wrote:
They're all the same RA.
Even Ron Paul is a part of it.

I would wager Gary Johnson is not. The same applies to Dennis Kucinich.

But if guys like Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders are not part of it that's a contradiction.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:28 #145

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.......... wrote:
andyh wrote:
They're all the same RA.
Even Ron Paul is a part of it.

I would wager Gary Johnson is not. The same applies to Dennis Kucinich.

But if guys like Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders are not part of it that's a contradiction.

How is that a contradiction? :)

NB: I didn't mention Bernie Sanders btw...you did lol.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
Last Edit: 30 Dec 2012 20:29 by andyh.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:29 #146

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.......... wrote:
The thing is that i was being very honest with you when i told you about when i was 19 or 20 and how the election with Gore, Nader and Bush caused the Iraq war. To this day i believe that Dick Cheney, Haliburton & PNAC caused that war. I posted the video where Bush talks about Saddam trying to kill his dad ect. I voted for Kerry in 2004 in hopes to end that. As i type this i honestly believe that if Romney were to get that job the shock and Awe of Iran would be getting ready to start the New Year.

What i'm trying to say is that if i did not vote for Obama and Romney & Netanyahu destroy Iran i'm guilty.
Good luck, mate, I wish you well. I hope you're right and I'm wrong. No doubt whatsoever that Romney was backed by some absolutely mental people, I've said the same on the DIF. Don't expect Obama to diverge from the Romney foreign policy, though. He extended the Bush neo-con foreign policy, so why should it be any different this time?Guevarista wrote:
:bla:
I've heard this from you countless times now, I must say you're the only one i've ever heard it from.
You're the only one who makes a point of bringing up the rules.
All I want is people to be courteous to each other, is this asking too much? Is it asking too much for adults to behave like adults? If so, what's the point in setting up this forum, why didn't you all just stay on the DIF? I would never tell anyone to shut up, we're supposed to be a community-driven site in which we all take a responsibility for its content. You know, collective responsibility, like in Marxism. Ring any bells?
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:30 #147

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
WUB I worry you've totally forgotten how to question your beliefs personally, hence we've fallen out a few times, however, knowing this, I have decided to try and nurture your development as best I can from a safe and maintained distance to avoid us falling out.
I hope you can take that onboard I mean no offense.
Not offended at all. I don't have any beliefs, though, I'm only interested in facts and evidence.

I'd say we all operate from a position of belief based on our worldview and none of us are truly impartial and objective - we can only try to be as much so as possible. Facts are meaningless in isolation - certainly when it comes to the sort of stuff we talk about on here - and often those facts may be in dispute. Like people may agree on 'the facts', but disagree on what those facts mean. This underlies the humanities in a huge way. It's not like Dickens' Mr Gradgrind - In this life, we want nothing but Facts, Sir; nothing but Facts!
We spend a lot of time both disputing what the facts are and - crucially - how we should interpret those facts. And additionally there may be so many facts we need to decide which ones are important.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:32 #148

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dogsmilk wrote:
And additionally there may be so many facts we need to decide which ones are important.

wub does a good job of that imho.
Trillions disappearing seems relevant I suppose...somehow.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:38 #149

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dogsmilk wrote:
I'd say we all operate from a position of belief based on our worldview and none of us are truly impartial and objective - we can only try to be as much so as possible.
I'm not claiming to be infallible or not guilty of being subjective that would be impossible. All I mean is that I don't have religious beliefs, or beliefs in one particular political system, or in 'conspiracy theories', or against 'conspiracy theories', or any pre-conceived, cherished concepts that I'm not willing to challenge if someone puts satisfactory evidence or facts in front of me. All my current views emanate from such evidence and, ideally, facts.
The true measure of a man is not his intelligence or how high he rises in this freak establishment. The true measure of a man is this: how quickly he can respond to the needs of others and how much of himself he can give - Philip K. Dick.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:54 #150

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
dogsmilk wrote:
I'd say we all operate from a position of belief based on our worldview and none of us are truly impartial and objective - we can only try to be as much so as possible.
I'm not claiming to be infallible or not guilty of being subjective that would be impossible. All I mean is that I don't have religious beliefs, or beliefs in one particular political system, or in 'conspiracy theories', or against 'conspiracy theories', or any pre-conceived, cherished concepts that I'm not willing to challenge if someone puts satisfactory evidence or facts in front of me. All my current views emanate from such evidence and, ideally, facts.

Sure. But doesn't nearly everyone think along similar lines? Like some people might be overt about their religious or political affiliations, but they believe in them often because the think the facts and evidence support them. Like an intelligent design believer and an atheist evolutionist will likely both believe the evidence supports their own position. Even Eternal Spirit (appears to) believe the evidence supports him, bless him.
I also think we do all have some pretty ingrained beliefs - like exactly how easy would it be to convince you fascism is a good idea compared to convincing you some form of directly participatory government is?. And then these are also informed by moral considerations - it could be a fact that if old people were executed it would save the economy billions -but that wouldn't be right. I know I'm biased against fascism and am proud to say so - because that has more to do with morals than facts.

Y'know, I just think most people think they operate according to the facts and evidence, though admittedly some zealot type people also do seem oddly proud of being impervious to reason.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:57 #151

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andyh wrote:
They're all the same RA.
Even Ron Paul is a part of it.

I would wager Gary Johnson is not. The same applies to Dennis Kucinich.
As an adult I respond to stupid statements like that like this:
:roll: :sokay: :shtf:
All I want is people to be courteous to each other, is this asking too much? Is it asking too much for adults to behave like adults? If so, what’s the point in setting up this forum, why didn’t you all just stay on the DIF? I would never tell anyone to shut up, we’re supposed to be a community-​driven site in which we all take a responsibility for its content. You know, collective responsibility, like in Marxism. Ring any bells?
Dear WUB, I did not walk out of DIF by choice my friend I was banned, I don't even know why haha.
You have tried to shut me up and have my posts deleted off your threads before, since you brought it up you remind me of people on DIF who were closed mindedly suppressing my opinions, who have rigid idealistic beliefs about how we should behave, what we should be doing, what we should think about banking, government, Marxism etc .

you're a stickler for orthodoxy WUB, and I;m just not :hi:
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 20:59 #152

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Guevarista wrote:
andyh wrote:
They're all the same RA.
Even Ron Paul is a part of it.

I would wager Gary Johnson is not. The same applies to Dennis Kucinich.
As an adult I respond to stupid statements like that like this:
:roll: :sokay: :shtf:

Its called an exception. You know of such things right?
Oh I forgot you're a commie....
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 21:00 #153

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andyh wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
andyh wrote:
They're all the same RA.
Even Ron Paul is a part of it.

I would wager Gary Johnson is not. The same applies to Dennis Kucinich.
As an adult I respond to stupid statements like that like this:
:roll: :sokay: :shtf:

Its called an exception. You know of such things right?
Oh I forgot you're a commie....

yeah and "they're all the same" right? :loco:
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 30 Dec 2012 21:01 by Guevarista.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 21:04 #154

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Guevarista wrote:
andyh wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
andyh wrote:
They're all the same RA.
Even Ron Paul is a part of it.

I would wager Gary Johnson is not. The same applies to Dennis Kucinich.
As an adult I respond to stupid statements like that like this:
:roll: :sokay: :shtf:

Its called an exception. You know of such things right?
Oh I forgot you're a commie....

yeah and "they're all the same" right? :loco:

Whats that got to do with relating an exception?
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 21:07 #155

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Can I just remind people what the subject of the thread is.

sanctumzone.co.uk/forum/Todays-News/8894...orward-to.html#88947
Germany ‘exporting’ old and sick to foreign care homes

Pensioners are being sent to care homes in eastern Europe and Asia in an austerity move dismissed as ‘inhumane deportation’

Growing numbers of elderly and sick Germans are being sent overseas for long-​term care in retirement and rehabilitation centres because of rising costs and falling standards in Germany.

The move, which has seen thousands of retired Germans rehoused in homes in eastern Europe and Asia, has been severely criticised by social welfare organisations who have called it “inhumane deportation”.

But with increasing numbers of Germans unable to afford the growing costs of retirement homes, and an ageing and shrinking population, the number expected to be sent abroad in the next few years is only likely to rise. Experts describe it as a “time bomb”.

Germany’s chronic care crisis – the care industry suffers from lack of workers and soaring costs – has for years been mitigated by eastern Europeans migrating to Germany in growing numbers to care for the country’s elderly.

But the transfer of old people to eastern Europe is being seen as a new and desperate departure, indicating that even with imported, cheaper workers, the system is unworkable.

Germany has one of the fastest-​ageing populations in the world, and the movement here has implications for other western countries, including Britain, particularly amid fears that austerity measures and rising care costs are potentially undermining standards of residential care.

The Sozialverband Deutschland (VdK), a German socio-​political advisory group, said the fact that growing numbers of Germans were unable to afford the costs of a retirement home in their own country sent a huge “alarm signal”. It has called for political intervention.

“We simply cannot let those people who built Germany up to be what it is, who put their backbones into it all their lives, be deported,” said VdK’s president, Ulrike Mascher. “It is inhumane.”

Researchers found an estimated 7,146 German pensioners living in retirement homes in Hungary in 2011. More than 3,000 had been sent to homes in the Czech Republic, and there were more than 600 in Slovakia. There are also unknown numbers in Spain, Greece and Ukraine. Thailand and the Philippines are also attracting increasing numbers.

The Guardian spoke to retired Germans and people needing long-​term care living in homes in Hungary, Thailand and Greece, some of whom said that they were there out of choice, because the costs were lower – on average between a third and two-​thirds of the price in Germany – and because of what they perceived as better standards of care.

But others were evidently there reluctantly.

The Guardian also found a variety of healthcare providers were in the process of building or just about to open homes overseas dedicated to the care of elderly Germans in what is clearly perceived in the industry to be a growing and highly profitable market.

According to Germany’s federal bureau of statistics, more than 400,000 senior citizens are currently unable to afford a German retirement home, a figure that is growing by around 5% a year.

The reasons are rising care home costs – which average between €2,900 and €3,400 (£2,700) a month, stagnating pensions, and the fact that people are more likely to need care as they get older.

As a result, the Krankenkassen or statutory insurers that make up Germany’s state insurance system are openly discussing how to make care in foreign retirement homes into a long-​term workable financial model.

In Asia, and eastern and southern Europe, care workers’ pay and other expenses such as laundry, maintenance and not least land and building costs, are often much lower.

Today, European Union law prevents state insurers from signing contracts directly with overseas homes, but that is likely to change as legislators are forced to find ways to respond to Europe’s ageing population.

The lack of legislation has not stopped retired people or their families from opting for foreign homes if their pensions could cover the costs.

But critics of the move have voiced particular worries about patients with dementia, amid concern that they are being sent abroad on the basis that they will not know the difference.

Sabine Jansen, head of Germany’s Alzheimer Society, said that surroundings and language were often of paramount importance to those with dementia looking to cling to their identity.

“In particular, people with dementia can find it difficult to orientate themselves in a wholly other culture with a completely different language, because they’re very much living in an old world consisting of their earlier memories,” she said.

With Germany’s population expected to shrink from almost 82 million to about 69 million by 2050, one in every 15 – about 4.7 million people – are expected to be in need of care, meaning the problem of provision is only likely to worsen.

Willi Zylajew, an MP with the conservative Christian Democrats and a care service specialist, said it would be increasingly necessary to consider foreign care.

“Considering the imminent crisis, it would be judicious to at least start thinking about alternative forms of care for the elderly,” he said.

Christel Bienstein, a nursing scientist from the University of Witten/​Herdecke, said many German care homes had reached breaking point due to lack of staff, and that care standards had dropped as a result.

“On average each patient is given only around 53 minutes of individual care every day, including feeding them,” she said. “Often there are 40 to 60 residents being looked after by just one carer.”

Artur Frank, the owner of Senior Palace, which finds care homes for Germans in Slovakia, said that was why it was wrong to suggest senior citizens were being “deported” abroad, as the VdK described it.

“They are not being deported or expelled,” he said. “Many are here of their own free will, and these are the results of sensible decisions by their families who know they will be better off.”

He said he had seen “plenty of examples of bad care” in German homes among the 50 pensioners for whom he had already found homes in Slovakia.

“There was one woman who had hardly been given anything to eat or drink, and in Slovakia they had to teach her how to swallow again,” he said.

German politicians have shied away from dealing with the subject, largely due to fears of a voter backlash if Germany’s state insurers are seen to be financing care workers abroad to the detriment of the domestic care industry.
It's about care homes in Germany and the greying population. If people have anything to say about that, let's discuss that. Otherwise, I will have the thread locked as, again, it has ceased to serve any reasonable purpose. I'm not interested in having some personal battle with people, this is for children in the playground.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 21:12 #156

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
Can I just remind people what the subject of the thread is.

sanctumzone.co.uk/forum/Todays-News/8894...orward-to.html#88947
Germany ‘exporting’ old and sick to foreign care homes

Pensioners are being sent to care homes in eastern Europe and Asia in an austerity move dismissed as ‘inhumane deportation’

Growing numbers of elderly and sick Germans are being sent overseas for long-​term care in retirement and rehabilitation centres because of rising costs and falling standards in Germany.

The move, which has seen thousands of retired Germans rehoused in homes in eastern Europe and Asia, has been severely criticised by social welfare organisations who have called it “inhumane deportation”.

But with increasing numbers of Germans unable to afford the growing costs of retirement homes, and an ageing and shrinking population, the number expected to be sent abroad in the next few years is only likely to rise. Experts describe it as a “time bomb”.

Germany’s chronic care crisis – the care industry suffers from lack of workers and soaring costs – has for years been mitigated by eastern Europeans migrating to Germany in growing numbers to care for the country’s elderly.

But the transfer of old people to eastern Europe is being seen as a new and desperate departure, indicating that even with imported, cheaper workers, the system is unworkable.

Germany has one of the fastest-​ageing populations in the world, and the movement here has implications for other western countries, including Britain, particularly amid fears that austerity measures and rising care costs are potentially undermining standards of residential care.

The Sozialverband Deutschland (VdK), a German socio-​political advisory group, said the fact that growing numbers of Germans were unable to afford the costs of a retirement home in their own country sent a huge “alarm signal”. It has called for political intervention.

“We simply cannot let those people who built Germany up to be what it is, who put their backbones into it all their lives, be deported,” said VdK’s president, Ulrike Mascher. “It is inhumane.”

Researchers found an estimated 7,146 German pensioners living in retirement homes in Hungary in 2011. More than 3,000 had been sent to homes in the Czech Republic, and there were more than 600 in Slovakia. There are also unknown numbers in Spain, Greece and Ukraine. Thailand and the Philippines are also attracting increasing numbers.

The Guardian spoke to retired Germans and people needing long-​term care living in homes in Hungary, Thailand and Greece, some of whom said that they were there out of choice, because the costs were lower – on average between a third and two-​thirds of the price in Germany – and because of what they perceived as better standards of care.

But others were evidently there reluctantly.

The Guardian also found a variety of healthcare providers were in the process of building or just about to open homes overseas dedicated to the care of elderly Germans in what is clearly perceived in the industry to be a growing and highly profitable market.

According to Germany’s federal bureau of statistics, more than 400,000 senior citizens are currently unable to afford a German retirement home, a figure that is growing by around 5% a year.

The reasons are rising care home costs – which average between €2,900 and €3,400 (£2,700) a month, stagnating pensions, and the fact that people are more likely to need care as they get older.

As a result, the Krankenkassen or statutory insurers that make up Germany’s state insurance system are openly discussing how to make care in foreign retirement homes into a long-​term workable financial model.

In Asia, and eastern and southern Europe, care workers’ pay and other expenses such as laundry, maintenance and not least land and building costs, are often much lower.

Today, European Union law prevents state insurers from signing contracts directly with overseas homes, but that is likely to change as legislators are forced to find ways to respond to Europe’s ageing population.

The lack of legislation has not stopped retired people or their families from opting for foreign homes if their pensions could cover the costs.

But critics of the move have voiced particular worries about patients with dementia, amid concern that they are being sent abroad on the basis that they will not know the difference.

Sabine Jansen, head of Germany’s Alzheimer Society, said that surroundings and language were often of paramount importance to those with dementia looking to cling to their identity.

“In particular, people with dementia can find it difficult to orientate themselves in a wholly other culture with a completely different language, because they’re very much living in an old world consisting of their earlier memories,” she said.

With Germany’s population expected to shrink from almost 82 million to about 69 million by 2050, one in every 15 – about 4.7 million people – are expected to be in need of care, meaning the problem of provision is only likely to worsen.

Willi Zylajew, an MP with the conservative Christian Democrats and a care service specialist, said it would be increasingly necessary to consider foreign care.

“Considering the imminent crisis, it would be judicious to at least start thinking about alternative forms of care for the elderly,” he said.

Christel Bienstein, a nursing scientist from the University of Witten/​Herdecke, said many German care homes had reached breaking point due to lack of staff, and that care standards had dropped as a result.

“On average each patient is given only around 53 minutes of individual care every day, including feeding them,” she said. “Often there are 40 to 60 residents being looked after by just one carer.”

Artur Frank, the owner of Senior Palace, which finds care homes for Germans in Slovakia, said that was why it was wrong to suggest senior citizens were being “deported” abroad, as the VdK described it.

“They are not being deported or expelled,” he said. “Many are here of their own free will, and these are the results of sensible decisions by their families who know they will be better off.”

He said he had seen “plenty of examples of bad care” in German homes among the 50 pensioners for whom he had already found homes in Slovakia.

“There was one woman who had hardly been given anything to eat or drink, and in Slovakia they had to teach her how to swallow again,” he said.

German politicians have shied away from dealing with the subject, largely due to fears of a voter backlash if Germany’s state insurers are seen to be financing care workers abroad to the detriment of the domestic care industry.
It's about care homes in Germany and the greying population. If people have anything to say about that, let's discuss that. Otherwise, I will have the thread locked as, again, it has ceased to serve any reasonable purpose. I'm not interested in having some personal battle with people, this is for children in the playground.

Post 132 was the last OT. Again it was me and again I've tried 3 times to stick OT.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 21:14 #157

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andyh wrote:
Post 132 was the last OT. Again it was me and again I've tried 3 times to stick OT.
It certainly wasn't aimed at you, Andy, it was thanks to a post you made on the DIF that I first learned of the demographic population issues.
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 21:21 #158

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wake_up_bomb wrote:
andyh wrote:
Post 132 was the last OT. Again it was me and again I've tried 3 times to stick OT.
It certainly wasn't aimed at you, Andy, it was thanks to a post you made on the DIF that I first learned of the demographic population issues.

I guess it jerks some emotional chains even here eh?
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: This is What we Have to Look Forward to 30 Dec 2012 21:23 #159

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I started a thread for people to talk about voting in.

sanctumzone.co.uk/forum/General/90247-Voting.html#90247
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