It's clear the US has been far more progressive and adherent to Keynesian economics while the Euro nations on the whole seem to have been far more Neo-Liberal.
www.fpif.org/articles/from_keynesianism_...radigms_in_economics

How this pans out with Cyprus will remain to be seen, I think it's a bitter medicine but worth trying instead if the enforced state austerity program and privatisation schemes prevalent in Greece.

Mike wrote:
Armed insurrection is probably the only thing that will stop this crap now.

andyh wrote:
"Probably"????

[
Well technically you do dodge tax because you offset stuff against expenses in a creative fashion you naughty boy,.
But yes. They'd rather drive the country over the edge of a cliff than get billionaires to pay what they're supposed to.

When we bought a house, we bought a small terrace with a backyard. The real draw was the mortgage was substantially less each month than we'd been paying in rent for a comparable property.
We could have bought a bigger house with a nice garden - and of course a far bigger mortgage. People would advise us to this. Professional people who were paid to know what they're talking about might advise us to do this. It's an investment, right?
Nearly every day something came through the door offering one or both of us credit. Practically begging us to take out some credit.
In fact, when we did get a mortgage it kinda went against that we didn't have a great credit rating - because we had no history of debt.

Why are ordinary people to blame because they were constantly bombarded with messages to borrow borrow borrow and then did so?

I'm sincerely glad things worked out.
You must have been a mechanic a good while ago if you were paid £2 an hour.

Much as I despise bankers, apparently they do tend to work very hard. Doing bullshit and fucking things up, but nevertheless putting in the hours to do so.

And what are "chav scum"? Wikipedia is surprisingly forthright regarding the definition of "chav"

In the old days the working class were characterised as keeping coal in their bath. This days they're mocked for a tendency to wear clothes the fashion police deem tacky and adorn themselves with bling - though achieving status through displays of gold seems to me fairly logical for people who can't afford an investment portfolio in a society that places financial wealth as the epitome we should all aspire towards. Same with having a souped up car. It's something they can realistically aspire to.

Of course there are these people who none of us would like to live next door to, but hasn't that always been the case?

And wasn't this made more likely after the all the council houses were sold off and what was left were likely to be the more troubled people corralled into designated parking pays for those that failed to aspire? Not to mention the deliberate dismantling of working class identity and destruction of traditional manufacturing jobs.

But of course these days the working class are fair game. With their tacky clothes and foul mouths and appearances on Jeremy Kyle for our entertainment. Of course not all the working class are chavs. Some look down on the chavs and think thank God I'm not like them. I'm so much more decent. Their 'betters' have always feared them deep down - the unruly mob with little to lose. Thank God they're no longer political.

What should we do about the chavs Andy?

Thats just the income tax, VAT doesn't even touch me at all.

You obviously did not fall foul of it.

Its 20 years ago. Wages still haven't improved, if at all.
If the economy was functioning the way it should then things would stay static.

lol...please...

No.

Give them a future and something worth working for.
You cannot do that today, there are several influences I've mentioned some of them unseen yet huge.
The biggies are technological unemployment, below replacement rate fertility ratio and rampant fractional reserve banking.

Its not like the worlds real leaders of industry and commerce don't know this, they're well aware.
Socialism as it stands is now impossible. It cannot be funded the way it is now, its a mathematical certainty. Simple as that.
Forget politics or left vs right, it is just fucking impossible for the economic paradigm to continue, simple as.

Now they can either cull the herd and maintain their lifestyle at the top with utter control or they can go the venus project route and save humanity.

I know which way its going and I don't need to give a shit about politics to see it.

Gas Field Off of Cyprus Stokes Tensions With Turkey
By STEPHEN GLAIN
Published: December 12, 2012

NICOSIA, CYPRUS — In October, the government of Cyprus announced it was negotiating possible licensing deals with 15 companies to explore for natural gas in a deep-water zone off the island’s southwest coast. The government says it expects to sign four contracts early next year — raising deep concerns over the possible reaction of Turkey, which has never recognized the Republic of Cyprus or its maritime borders since the de facto division of the island in 1974.

“Turkey says it will not tolerate exploration and Cyprus says it will proceed,” said Hubert Faustmann, an associate professor at the University of Nicosia. “Neither side has blinked and they’re playing for great stakes.”

Aphrodite, as the gas field is named, was discovered a year ago, about 35 kilometers, or 20 miles, west of the Leviathan field, itself discovered a year earlier in Israeli waters. According to an initial survey conducted by Noble Energy, based in Houston, Texas, it could contain 5 trillion to 8 trillion cubic feet of gas, or 142 billion to 227 billion cubic meters, more than Cyprus could consume in a century.

In the initial discovery euphoria, there were suggestions that the development of the Eastern Mediterranean fields could help to stabilize one of the world’s most politically troubled regions.

Political and energy analysts suggested that cooperation between Cyprus and Turkey on gas transportation, and revenue sharing between Greek and Turkish Cypriots, could help to revive stalled Cypriot reunification talks. Gas exports could also help revive a Cyprus economy pummeled by the euro crisis and help Europe to reduce its dependence on Russian-controlled gas. And regional cooperation could help to diminish tensions between Israel and its neighbors.

A year on, the mood has changed. Nicosia, by embarking on a unilateral exploration program, has antagonized both Turkish Cypriots and the Turkish government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Ankara, in turn has warned that it would respond forcefully to continued drilling unless the “inherent and equal rights” of the Turkish Cypriots to hydrocarbon finds are respected, said Mithat Rende, a senior Turkish foreign ministry official, in an interview last month.

Turkey also claims that portions of the exclusive economic zone established by Nicosia in 2010 as part of its gas exploration program lie within Turkey’s continental shelf.

Last month, at an international energy conference in Istanbul, Turkey reiterated warnings that the world’s major energy companies would lose access to its vast market should they work with Nicosia on Aphrodite. Companies currently negotiating possible deals with Cyprus include Total of France, Eni of Italy and Novatek of Russia.

In a similarly pointed warning, in May, Turkish fighter jets chased Israeli warplanes from what Ankara said was Turkish airspace just north of Cyprus. The chilling of formerly cordial relations between Turkey and Israel reflects not only the standoff over Israel’s blockade of Gaza but also close Israeli cooperation with Nicosia on exploration of Cypriot gas reserves.

According to a report from the International Crisis Group, citing local news reports, tensions are continuing to rise, with Greek Cypriots accusing Turkey of increasingly provocative military maneuvers and “gunboat diplomacy.”

“We cannot rely on either side of Cyprus to show leadership on this issue,” says Ozdil Nami, a member of the Turkish Cypriot Parliament and a former chief of negotiations for reunification. “We need the U.S., Russia and others to take a stance. Otherwise this area will present itself with another conflict in a region where we don’t need another one.”

Since it could take at least seven years to deliver Aphrodite gas to market, some observers say interested parties have plenty of time to unravel their thicket of disputes. Most agree, however, that reconciliation over the field is unlikely without progress on Cypriot reunification, the prospects for which are dim.

There are also market forces to consider. As sources of natural gas proliferate, the price may decline even as Europe revives economically. Energy analysts say U.S. shale gas in particular, which now accounts for 35 percent of U.S. natural gas consumption compared with just 1 percent in 2000, is a global game changer.

One obvious way to leverage a price advantage from Aphrodite gas would be to transport it in the most cost-efficient way, which by all accounts means pumping it through a pipeline from Cyprus to Turkey, where it could be shipped to Europe. That would suit the Europeans who, having been denied gas supplies in late 2006 as a consequence of feuding between Russia and Ukraine, identified Turkey as a vital transit point for fuel.

In addition to the cost benefits, some analysts say, a Cyprus-Turkey pipeline would be just the tonic needed to stir reunification talks, or as Laura Le Cornu, an energy consultant based in Cyprus, puts it, “the mother of all confidence-building measures.”

For many Greek Cypriots, however, to say nothing of Israelis, such faith in Turkish good will is dangerously naïve. Not only has Russia been known to turn off its gas taps to settle geopolitical scores, Egypt in April briefly interrupted Israeli and Jordanian supplies and Turkey has done the same to Greece over the last several years. Given such exigencies, says Andreas Theophanous, a professor at the University of Nicosia, “Why would you accommodate a country that does not recognize your right to exist?”

That leaves only two alternatives: pumping the gas via pipeline from Greek Cyprus to the Greek island of Crete and then on to Europe, or building a liquefied natural gas terminal and transporting the fuel by sea. Both options are expensive; L.N.G. terminals typically cost about $10 billion, or about 10 times the estimated $1 billion price of a Cyprus-Turkey pipeline.

A pipeline linking Cyprus to Crete would cost even more. Harry Sachinis, chief executive of the publicly controlled Greek firm, Public Gas Corp., which is known by its acronym Depa, says that a study by the pipeline contractor J.P. Kenny has shown the feasibility of such a project: “If a decision were made today,” he said, “it could mean gas to Europe by 2018.”

Still, at some 1,150 kilometers in total pipeline length, a Cyprus-Crete link would be comparable in scale to the Nord Stream system that brings Russian gas to Western Europe under the Baltic Sea and could cost as much as $17 billion to build, according to Strata Insight, a hydrocarbons consulting firm in Nicosia.

Such is the burden of politics, says Praxoula Antoniadou Kyriacou, a former Cypriot gas minister and now a leader of the country’s liberal United Democrats party. “To the extent this problem is unresolved and there is no pipeline through Turkey, that leaves us with more expensive alternatives” she said. “We have no choice but to consider political and economic factors.”

Turkey is also running out of options. The strong international response to Nicosia’s tender has challenged Ankara on its threat to punish companies that entered the bidding process.

“Cyprus has done a good job of converting licenses into support from big countries,” said Mr. Haustmann of the University of Nicosia. “The Turks cannot take on France, Italy, the U.S. — and Israel.”

Hugh Pope, a director at International Crisis Group, said that “everyone could win” if relations were normalized. “But a failure to strike a political compromise has held Turkey back for decades: Now it’s blocking Nicosia’s most obvious route back to prosperity.”

The point is you deliberately avoid tax. That is not meant in any form of judgmental way, simply an observation.

I wasn't brought up to have lots of debt. Lots of other people came of age in a world where debt was natural. Many people have started adulthood with a mountain of student debt. They wanted you to take credit so they could lower your real term wages but still have you spending money - and paying interest to boot. The point is just because you and I didn't fall for it, you cannot blame millions of people for what was presented as perfectly normal behaviour.

In a lot of areas they've gone down. Though mechanics certainly do not get £2 an hour today.

Why do they not work hard just because you don't like what they do? Is "hard work" only defined by whether you value the output?
And who cares anyway? Why is "hard work" such a great thing? Really, we should all be working two-three days a week and spending the rest of the time pissing about,. Instead, some people are working their nuts off while others can't get work at all. The inherent value of "hard work" in terms of employment is IMO a tool used to get people thinking it's morally desirable to bust a gut making some cunt rich as a "productive member of society".

So when was this golden age?
Of course there is the factor of working class communities having their self identity deliberately obliterated and people being encouraged to believe they're aspirational agents in competition with everyone else...and then it being moaned about that there's no longer a sense of community. But even so, neighbours who do your head in have been a fact of life since forever. .

Well it can be argued that capitalism is doomed to implode at some point whatever happens.
But I think Socialism was always the most sensible answer for a capitalist democracy. If you're going to have capitalism, it needs to be heavily regulated because it's proved time and again it needs baby reins or it'll run into the road claiming it's fine playing in the traffic if only everybody would leave it alone and get rid of those pesky zebra crossings. And redistribution of wealth is the only way to keep it as fair as possible. And the economy functions far better if people can actually afford to buy stuff and pay tax as opposed to the dreamworld where apparently everyone is better off if a tiny minority get super rich and then hide their money outside the country while everyone else runs up enormous credit card bills.

Things can't be that bad though - we can, after all, still afford to replace our nuclear arsenal that can never be used and virtually no other country in Europe feels a need for.

I don't know much about the Venus project, but I have a nasty suspicion if TSHTF there's going to be some kind of fascist resurgence.

Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:07pm EDT

* Cyprus parliament postpones vote on levy

* President says cash-strapped island had no choice

* Deposit losers will get gas-guaranteed equity

* Cypriots rush to cashpoints to withdraw money

By Michele Kambas

NICOSIA, March 17 (Reuters) - Cyprus's parliament has postponed until Monday an emergency session to vote on a levy on bank deposits after signs that lawmakers might block the surprise move agreed in Brussels to help fund a bailout and avert national bankruptcy.

In a radical departure from previous aid packages, euro zone finance ministers want Cyprus savers to forfeit up to 9.9 percent of their deposits in return for a 10 billion euro ($13 billion) bailout for the island, which has been financially crippled by its exposure to neighbouring Greece.

The decision, announced on Saturday morning, stunned Cypriots and caused a run on cashpoints, most of which were depleted within hours. Electronic transfers were stopped.

The move to take a percentage of deposits, which could raise almost 6 billion euros, must be ratified by parliament, where no party has a majority. If it fails to do so, President Nicos Anastasiades has warned, Cyprus's two largest banks will collapse.

One bank, the Cyprus Popular Bank, could have its emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) funding from the European Central Bank cut by March 21.

A default in Cyprus could unravel investor confidence in the euro zone, undoing the improvements fostered by the European Central Bank's promise last year to do whatever it takes to shore up the currency bloc.

A meeting of parliament scheduled for 1400 GMT on Sunday was postponed for a day to give more time for consultations and broker a deal, political sources said. The levy was scheduled to come into force on Tuesday, after a bank holiday on Monday.

BREAKS A TABOO

Making bank depositors bear some of the costs of a bailout had been taboo in Europe, but euro zone officials said it was the only way to salvage Cyprus's financial sector, which is around eight times the size of the economy.

European officials said it would not set a precedent.

In Spain, one of four other states getting euro zone help and seen as a possible candidate for a sovereign rescue, officials were quick to say Cyprus was a unique case. A Bank of Spain spokesman said there had been no sign of deposit flight.

But the chief of Greece's main opposition, the anti-bailout Syriza party, Alexis Tsipras, blamed the move on German Chancellor Angela Merkel, according to Greek state news agency ANA.

"We must all together raise a shield to protect the peoples (of Europe) from Ms Merkel's criminal strategy," said Tsipras, who wants a pan-European debt conference to forgive debt.

The crisis is unprecedented in the history of the Mediterranean island, which suffered a war and ethnic split in 1974 in which a quarter of its population was internally displaced.

Anastasiades, elected only three weeks ago, said savers will be compensated by shares in banks guaranteed by future natural gas revenues.

Cyprus is expecting the results of an offshore appraisal drilling this year to confirm the island is sitting on vast amounts of natural gas worth billions.

In a televised address to the nation on Sunday, Anastasiades said he had to accept the tax in return for international aid, or else the island would have faced bankruptcy.

"The solution we concluded upon is not what we wanted, but is the least painful under the circumstances," Anastasiades said.

With a gross domestic product of barely 0.2 percent of the bloc's overall output, Cyprus applied for financial aid last June, but negotiations were stalled by the complexity of the deal and the reluctance of the island's previous president to sign.

International Monetary Fund Managing Director Christine Lagarde, who attended the meeting, said she backed the deal and would ask the IMF board in Washington to contribute to the bailout.

RUSSIANS, EUROPEANS

The proposed levies on deposits are 9.9 percent for those exceeding 100,000 euros and 6.7 percent on anything below that.

According to a draft copy of legislation, failing to pay up would be a criminal offence liable to three years in jail or a 50,000 euro fine.

Those affected will include rich Russians with deposits in Cyprus and Europeans who have retired to the island, as well as Cypriots themselves.

"I'm furious," said Chris Drake, a former Middle East correspondent for the BBC who lives in Cyprus. "There were plenty of opportunities to take our money out; we didn't because we were promised it was a red line which would not be crossed."

"I've lost several thousand," he told Reuters.

British finance minister George Osborne told the BBC on Sunday that Britain would compensate its 3,500 military personnel based in Cyprus.

Anastasiades's right-wing Democratic Rally party, with 20 seats in the 56-member parliament, needs the support of other factions for the vote to pass. It was unclear whether even his coalition partners, the Democratic Party, would fully support the levy.

Cyprus's Communist party AKEL, accused of stalling on a bailout during its tenure in power until the end of February, would vote against the measure. The socialist Edek party called EU demands "absurd".

"This is unacceptably unfair and we are against it," said Adonis Yiangou of the Greens Party, the smallest in parliament but a potential swing vote.

Many Cypriots, having contributed to bailouts for Ireland, Portugal and Greece - Greece's second bailout contributed to a debt restructuring that blew the 4.5 billion euro hole in Cyprus's banking sector - are aghast at their treatment by Europe.

Cyprus received a "stab in the back" from its EU partners, the daily Phileleftheros said.

But it and another newspapers highlighted the danger of plunging the banking system into further turmoil if lawmakers sat on the fence.

"Even if the final agreement is wrong, if this is not approved by parliament the damage will be even greater," Politis economics editor Demetris Georgiades said in an editorial.

For the umpteenth time I do not 'dodge' tax. How can I dodge tax that I am not asked to pay?
If you have a problem with it, try taking it up with your MP, calling the cops as dubs suggests or perhaps voting labour like Mike suggests.

I can and I have, their own fault.
Still nothing like as bad as the bankers debt of course or the govts debt but the media will ofc portray it that way.

Depends if they're employees or run the garage.

The bankers we are discussing here think that work comprises some board meetings and perhaps a round of golf afterwards DM.
They have employees who do the work.

Not 'forever' no.
You're using an expression and not being factual in any way there
Its quite possible to live without any neighbors next door at all if you wanted and you can do that today let alone a long time ago.

Theres in principle and what actually got applied

No we can't, the UK is about 900% in debt over what it takes in.
Ireland is far worse, yet just before it all went to hell in a handbasket mysterious depositors withdrew over 40bn from the banks.

I agree, the BNP attitude will grow in number. It can actually work...for a while but the rest of the world still remains controlled by bankers even if they did it, there'd be no acceptance of UK treasury notes internationally and therefore the UK would have to be self sufficient.
I can't see that working out all that well.

The UK will compensate any British troops in Cyprus hit by plans to introduce a bank levy as part of a £9bn EU bailout, the chancellor has said.

British government workers would also be protected, George Osborne said.

Under the bailout, account holders in Cyprus with up to 100,000 euros would pay a one-off levy of 6.75%; higher deposits would suffer a 9.9% levy.

So what's with all the 'essential maintenance' today at 2 banks that I've found?....anybody check theirs?

Jane

Because if you put something against expenses that is not solely for your business you are swindling the ta man. I don't have a problem with it. When I was working via a payroll company I was taking in sandwiches and claiming for lunches I never bought - they told me to do it so I did. Millions of people are at it. They want you to do it. They were forced to pay lots of tax by labour agitation that forced the tradeoff of the welfare state. And they want rid of it so they can be left to earn milions in peace without giving anything back, So they need people to get into the mindset.

That's up to you. Personally I don't see how you can blame millions of ordinary working people for behaving how they were repeatedly told to behave.

Apparently the average is £23,000. That's near enough average wage.
www.mysalary.co.uk/average-salary/Mechanic_1804
Looks like it's dropped a bit though. How surprising.

They're the very top bods surely? The actual bankers who run round mucking about with these marvelous 'financial products' do actually work very hard. Being cunts, but still working hard. They're not just sitting on their asses all day. That's not to praise them in any way - the SS worked jolly hard murdering Jews. It's just saying that just because people do jobs we may despise that doesn't mean they're not working hard doing it.

LOL Wut? A lot of people can't just live in some country cottage either because they can't afford the price or because they wouldn't be able to get to work. We could have moved to house with no neighbours - then we'd probably have had one of those huge mortgages as round here you pay top whack for these nice cottages and I'd have been fucked getting to work if my car broke down. And a/Mrs Dogsmilk doesn't drive and b/We can't afford to run two cars - so she'd have had to give up work. It's not like buses haven't been cut or don't cost a ridiculous amount to go a few miles.

You seem to think anyone who hasn't moved to a lovely life in some rural idyll is just being lazy.

When and where?

I was being sarcastic.
I see you watched that video. I think it's prediction of doom was probably true, but I didn't like the way it was so obviously ideologically charged and blamed everything, ever on public spending. And in the seventies you would have been paying 83% tax - do you really want that again???? Well that was for the wealthy and back when it was 90% it was just normal. But then we all fell asleep and the rich re-asserted themselves and decided society only works if the gap between rich and poor widens again. But it's a money mag for people who like to get rich so I guess it's expected. I also LOLd at Your entire way of life is facing imminent doom - find out how to survive by subscribing to our magazine RIGHT NOW

I guess it's kinda lucky the BNP have fallen apart somewhat. If they'd played their cards right they would have been getting somewhre right about now.

Hmmmm....recompense the military and 'government workers' over there...as they should...but no talk of 'our' government (read 'us') recompensing Brit ex-pats out there.........there's interesting now.

Jane

Hmmmm....recompense the military and 'government workers' over there...as they should...but no talk of 'our' government (read 'us') recompensing Brit ex-pats out there.........there's interesting now.

Jane

That's OK then WuB.
But if I hadn't seen that initial post, (over there), I wouldn't have bothered checking mine tonight (Barclays) and would have missed the message about their maintenance 'thing' today...............Just saying......


Jane

Cyprus is currently deciding whether to raise the anti-crisis tax on savings larger than 100.000 euros to 12.5% while reducing the levy on smaller amounts to 3% a source told Reuters.