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TOPIC: Money is totally unnecessary

Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 00:50 #61

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RealAmerican wrote:
andyh wrote:
A resource based society would be beneficial for all but a tiny fraction of 1% of the population at the top who like to fly around in personal jets, own several yachts, millions of acres etc. They are the only ones who would lose out but even they would stand to make quite significant spiritual gains.

If the world wanted this we would already be living in a resource based society.

If the 99% are not intelligent enough to manifest that type of society so be it.

That's just the way it is and I see absolutely no signs of this changing.

Thats an intelligent post IMHO and I agree to a great extent...but is it not the responsibility of those who know best (even if they are small in number) to somehow try and help?
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 00:51 #62

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andyh wrote:
You have blatantly said that you would prefer the NWO over TVP.
It tells me 2 things..

1) You have no real idea what TVP is actually about.
2) You make kneejerk assumptions

Andy keep it civilised, and stop telling porkies. I didnt say what you are saying that I said. And the computer DOES control everything in the Venus Project, cos Fresco said it himself and so did Peter Joseph, and if you say otherwise Andy, then you either :-

1. You have forgotten what Fresco and Joseph said
2. Telling porkies again
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 00:53 #63

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Steevo wrote:
But the computer in The Venus Project DOES make the decisions (obviously the computer has to be programmed beforehand though). Youre right Andy, food does NOT stop growing unless there is a natural disaster or a manufactured shortage (either real or imagined), but they would never do THAT ;)
'They' do it right now with artifically manipulated markets.
How can it be manipulated if there is no market? :p
What if everyones growing food themselves anyway all over the place?
Bad a bum tish...
And Dub, cos of free speech on this forum, I can talk about the Venus Project. The subject is connected to your thread. You dont have to reply to all my posts, and then I will not post some much. I realise that I do tend to wind people up, and their ego gets the better of them and they have a compulsion to reply, just like we all do at times :emb: I dont mind very much if I dont get many replies on this particular subject (Venus Project) cos I have already had the discussion with Andy on the DIF and we got no-where, but the discussuin usually were pretty civilised.

You're genuine enough steevo and actually you DID get somewhere on DIF, you just can't remember lol.

Put it this way, would you be averse to experimentation to get proof of concept first of all?
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 00:54 #64

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dubmeup wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
This is an essential process, we apply the consciousness of the present to the examples of the past, let's take Santayana's adage "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." as a motto perhaps in this endeavour and build on past experience with the tools of the now?
Agreed 100%. We have seen how genuine ideas can be corrupted so many times. It'd be stupid not to take thoselessons into consideration. It would also be stupid not to take the genuine ideas our ancestors had into consideration. :thumbup: There'd be a lot to learn from cultures such as Native North Americans for example who I don't think used currency prior to the Europeans arriving.
In relation to social infrastructure it might be interesting to look at the "squatting" laws?
Could you expand on that please? I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.
Well taking ownership of land, but also property for the common good, to fulfill need, have people tried it, yes, squatters we could see whether there is any potential in the practice?

It would also be interesting perhaps to study Revolutionary Russia or China in this regard, though these were authoritarian states, they had to go through the transition we are proposing here, and the re-distribution of private property, we can assess their success and failings?
Maybe there are other examples where people have assumed control of resources and distributed according to need?

I think if we list a few examples we can study that might be a worthwhile community activity for us to engage in?

RE Native Americans, I definitely agree that we should take a multicultural approach to this question.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
Last Edit: 30 Jul 2012 00:58 by Guevarista.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 00:56 #65

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Steevo wrote:
And Dub, cos of free speech on this forum, I can talk about the Venus Project. The subject is connected to your thread.
Absolutely Steevo :thumbup: Please don't think I was trying to suggest I didn't want you to mention it, or anything else related.
You obviously have concerns about it and that's 100% fair play :thumbup:
I'm just pointing out that in starting the thread, I'm not saying "yay let's all follow The Venus Project, them guys have it sussed".
Tbh, they weren't even in my head but of course you're right, their ideas are relevant :)
I tend to reply to posts I think I have something to say about, add to, counter or question personally. In the case of this thread so far that seems to be pretty much all of them, including yours :) I doubt my attention will stay quite so keen as the thread develops. Especially if it carries on at this pace :D
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 00:56 #66

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Steevo wrote:
andyh wrote:
You have blatantly said that you would prefer the NWO over TVP.
It tells me 2 things..

1) You have no real idea what TVP is actually about.
2) You make kneejerk assumptions

Andy keep it civilised, and stop telling porkies. I didnt say what you are saying that I said. And the computer DOES control everything in the Venus Project, cos Fresco said it himself and so did Peter Joseph, and if you say otherwise Andy, then you either :-

1. You have forgotten what Fresco and Joseph said
2. Telling porkies again

I'm not lying, at no point has Jacques Fresco said that some supercomputer would control EVERYTHING.
He said that a computer would control waste collection, recycling, drainage and cleaning and other such mundane tasks.
The computer would NOT make decisions about where to build, what to build, what colour it is, blah blah blah.
Humans make those decisions.

Would you care to show everyone where Fresco said that this computer would make ALL decisions please? :)
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 00:57 #67

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Guevarista wrote:
dubmeup wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
This is an essential process, we apply the consciousness of the present to the examples of the past, let's take Santayana's adage "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." as a motto perhaps in this endeavour and build on past experience with the tools of the now?
Agreed 100%. We have seen how genuine ideas can be corrupted so many times. It'd be stupid not to take thoselessons into consideration. It would also be stupid not to take the genuine ideas our ancestors had into consideration. :thumbup: There'd be a lot to learn from cultures such as Native North Americans for example who I don't think used currency prior to the Europeans arriving.
In relation to social infrastructure it might be interesting to look at the "squatting" laws?
Could you expand on that please? I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.
Well taking ownership of land, but also property for the common good, to fulfill need, have people tried it, yes, squatters we could see whether there is any potential in the practice?

It would also be interesting perhaps to study Revolutionary Russia or China in this regard, though these were authoritarian states, they had to go through the transition we are proposing here, and the dispersal of private property, maybe there are other examples where people have assumed control of resources and distributed according to need?

I think if we list a few examples we can study that might be a worthwhile community activity for us to engage in?

None of us here would want to assume control of resources and hand them out.
Thats an authoritarian methodology.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 00:58 #68

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dubmeup wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
Is this another case of thread derailment?

I think it's a case of Steevo not giving in to ego :)

I'd rather de-rail the thread, than de-rail the forum eh Dub, with say Forum Wars. :P

Anyway back on topic.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 00:59 #69

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dubmeup wrote:
Especially if it carries on at this pace :D

I did say you opened a can of slugs :D
/goes for shovel :p
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 01:01 #70

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May I suggest we stop talking about TVP now, make another thread and merge the off topic posts in this one over?
I'd hate to see this result in 11 pages like my Marxism thread where only about 6 posts are about Marxism.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 01:03 #71

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andyh wrote:
Steevo wrote:
andyh wrote:
You have blatantly said that you would prefer the NWO over TVP.
It tells me 2 things..

1) You have no real idea what TVP is actually about.
2) You make kneejerk assumptions

Andy keep it civilised, and stop telling porkies. I didnt say what you are saying that I said. And the computer DOES control everything in the Venus Project, cos Fresco said it himself and so did Peter Joseph, and if you say otherwise Andy, then you either :-

1. You have forgotten what Fresco and Joseph said
2. Telling porkies again

I'm not lying, at no point has Jacques Fresco said that some supercomputer would control EVERYTHING.
He said that a computer would control waste collection, recycling, drainage and cleaning and other such mundane tasks.
The computer would NOT make decisions about where to build, what to build, what colour it is, blah blah blah.
Humans make those decisions.

Would you care to show everyone where Fresco said that this computer would make ALL decisions please? :)

They can all go look for themselves, it's all there what I've said. Jeeeez! I am not the only one on here who has watched those Zeitgeist and the Venus Project, it's old news. If you or anyone else wanna proove me wrong, then do so.

Sorry get this thread back on track.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 01:04 #72

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Guevarista wrote:
May I suggest we stop talking about TVP now, make another thread and merge the off topic posts in this one over?
I'd hate to see this result in 11 pages like my Marxism thread where only about 6 posts are about Marxism.

TVP is relevant because its 99% along the lines of what dub has asked about.
Whatever choices are made for a system of post scarcity anarchism they are going to be very much in line with TVP.
Its probably impossible to avoid mentioning all the ideas that TVP does so why go through all the same stuff without mentioning it?
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 01:06 #73

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Steevo wrote:
andyh wrote:
Steevo wrote:
andyh wrote:
You have blatantly said that you would prefer the NWO over TVP.
It tells me 2 things..

1) You have no real idea what TVP is actually about.
2) You make kneejerk assumptions

Andy keep it civilised, and stop telling porkies. I didnt say what you are saying that I said. And the computer DOES control everything in the Venus Project, cos Fresco said it himself and so did Peter Joseph, and if you say otherwise Andy, then you either :-

1. You have forgotten what Fresco and Joseph said
2. Telling porkies again

I'm not lying, at no point has Jacques Fresco said that some supercomputer would control EVERYTHING.
He said that a computer would control waste collection, recycling, drainage and cleaning and other such mundane tasks.
The computer would NOT make decisions about where to build, what to build, what colour it is, blah blah blah.
Humans make those decisions.

Would you care to show everyone where Fresco said that this computer would make ALL decisions please? :)

They can all go look for themselves, it's all there what I've said. Jeeeez! I am not the only one on here who has watched those Zeitgeist and the Venus Project, it's old news. If you or anyone else wanna proove me wrong, then do so.

Sorry get this thread back on track.

How do I prove such a thing without simply linking to dozens of hours of film footage for everyone to see and try to find where he mentions it?

Surely its easier to show the short bit where he does mention it than try and show he doesn't?

When you figure it out let me know lol.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 01:09 #74

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andyh wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
May I suggest we stop talking about TVP now, make another thread and merge the off topic posts in this one over?
I'd hate to see this result in 11 pages like my Marxism thread where only about 6 posts are about Marxism.

TVP is relevant because its 99% along the lines of what dub has asked about.
Whatever choices are made for a system of post scarcity anarchism they are going to be very much in line with TVP.
Its probably impossible to avoid mentioning all the ideas that TVP does so why go through all the same stuff without mentioning it?
I absolutely cannot begin to explain how important it is in the interests of everyone, to make a separate thread about it if you feel so strongly.

Dub, forgive me here, I just think it will help the purpose of your thread if we establish a framework of how to proceed, as it stands you're all just arguing the toss about stuff that we can all go watch 20hrs of video about and then be no clearer on how to achieve it.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 01:09 #75

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andyh wrote:
RealAmerican wrote:
andyh wrote:
A resource based society would be beneficial for all but a tiny fraction of 1% of the population at the top who like to fly around in personal jets, own several yachts, millions of acres etc. They are the only ones who would lose out but even they would stand to make quite significant spiritual gains.

If the world wanted this we would already be living in a resource based society.

If the 99% are not intelligent enough to manifest that type of society so be it.

That's just the way it is and I see absolutely no signs of this changing.

Thats an intelligent post IMHO and I agree to a great extent...but is it not the responsibility of those who know best (even if they are small in number) to somehow try and help?

Alot of the 1% money is right here for the world to see.

www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/

People don't care that they are ruled by a wealthy class so be it.

Just look at the way the British worship the royals.

All those people on the DIF complain about the Rothschild having 500 trillion ect...

Nobody in OWS ever protested the military industrial complex.

Like I said if the majority of people wanted the system to change it would.

All we can do is adapt, sad but true.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 01:10 #76

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Guevarista wrote:
Well taking ownership of land, but also property for the common good, to fulfill need, have people tried it, yes, squatters we could see whether there is any potential in the practice?

My experience of squatting in the UK under section 6 is that there are many conditions you have to meet in order for the section 6 notice to be valid. That's hard enough to maintain for a building, for land it would be considerably harder still. Other countries would obviously have different laws on the subject of squatting.
I can see what you're getting at now, steps that could be taken to reclaim real world wealth :thumbup: . I'm not entirely sure how that would pan out with relation to the abolition of currency though. Could it be done unilaterally? Or would it need to be a multilateral thing involving the peoples of the World as a whole? An interesting and very relevant question I think.
Maybe there are other examples where people have assumed control of resources and distributed according to need?

Yes there are but as far as I'm aware, there has not been a time for many many years that humanity has not used currency in some form, save so called "primitive" cultures. I'd certainly be looking to those "primitive" cultures for their thoughts and trying to see how they relate to a technological developed age/society.
Last Edit: 30 Jul 2012 01:20 by dubs.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 01:11 #77

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RealAmerican wrote:

Alot of the 1% money is right here for the world to see.

www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/

People don't care that they are ruled by a wealthy class so be it.

Just look at the way the British worship the royals.

All those people on the DIF complain about the Rothschild having 500 trillion ect...

Nobody in OWS ever protested the military industrial complex.

Like I said if the majority of people wanted the system to change it would.

All we can do is adapt, sad but true.

What I'm asking is, shouldn't we be looking towards ways to convince the 99% ?
Surely an experiment done properly would help?
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 01:13 #78

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Guevarista wrote:
andyh wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
May I suggest we stop talking about TVP now, make another thread and merge the off topic posts in this one over?
I'd hate to see this result in 11 pages like my Marxism thread where only about 6 posts are about Marxism.

TVP is relevant because its 99% along the lines of what dub has asked about.
Whatever choices are made for a system of post scarcity anarchism they are going to be very much in line with TVP.
Its probably impossible to avoid mentioning all the ideas that TVP does so why go through all the same stuff without mentioning it?
I absolutely cannot begin to explain how important it is in the interests of everyone, to make a separate thread about it if you feel so strongly.

Dub, forgive me here, I just think it will help the purpose of your thread if we establish a framework of how to proceed, as it stands you're all just arguing the toss about stuff that we can all go watch 20hrs of video about and then be no clearer on how to achieve it.

Its not about feeling strongly about it as much as it having relevance.
How is it not relevant to a discussion about a society with no money whatsoever when TVP is precisely that!?

Do you know of some other example here we're missing? :p
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 01:19 #79

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RealAmerican wrote:

People don't care that they are ruled by a wealthy class so be it.

Just look at the way the British worship the royals.
Again RA as I said in another thread, SOME British worship the royals. A tiny minority. But let's discuss that one in that thread eh :thumbup:
Like I said if the majority of people wanted the system to change it would.
I kind of agree with that but I'd perhaps add in a couple of words, it'd then read like this:
If the majority of people wanted the system to change strongly enough, it would.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 30 Jul 2012 01:20 #80

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dubmeup wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
Well taking ownership of land, but also property for the common good, to fulfill need, have people tried it, yes, squatters we could see whether there is any potential in the practice?[/
quote]
My experience of squatting in the UK under section 6 is that there are many conditions you have to meet in order for the section 6 notice to be valid. That's hard enough to maintain for a building, for land it would be considerably harder still. Other countries would obviously have different laws on the subject of squatting.
I can see what you're getting at now, steps that could be taken to reclaim real world wealth :thumbup: . I'm not entirely sure how that would pan out with relation to the abolition of currency though. Could it be done unilaterally? Or would it need to be a multilateral thing involving the peoples of the World as a whole? An interesting and very relevant question I think.
Maybe there are other examples where people have assumed control of resources and distributed according to need?

Yes there are but as far as I'm aware, there has not been a time for many many years that humanity has not used currency in some form, save so called "primitive" cultures. I'd certainly be looking to those "primitive" cultures for their thoughts and trying to see how they relate to a technological developed age/society.

Ok so shall we draw a line here?
explore some of the examples of the past we've been talking about?

Maybe everyone in the thread could suggest an example to explore in the interests of forming a transitionary program, TZP has a website andyh, maybe you could build a new thread and link to their website and vids in it, then post a link to that thread in this thread as a theoretical example of a non economy based society?
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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