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TOPIC: Money is totally unnecessary

Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 21:41 #1

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Money in any shape or form is absolutely completely and totally unnecessary. No If's no buts and no doubts.
There is absolutely nothing that we do now that we couldn't do if we abolished all forms of currency. In fact, it would mean that we could do far more. Please discuss :)
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 21:46 #2

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Oh boy, now you've opened the proverbial can of slugs. lol :D
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:04 #3

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dubmeup wrote:
Money in any shape or form is absolutely completely and totally unnecessary. No If's no buts and no doubts.
There is absolutely nothing that we do now that we couldn't do if we abolished all forms of currency. In fact, it would mean that we could do far more. Please discuss :)

So say people have all their wealth in money, maybe £100,000 what would happen if you abolished all forms of currency, who would be abolishing the currency?
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:05 #4

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The first thing that comes to mind is that what is proposed here is nothing less than evolution.
The human being has made use of money as a concept for ownership and motivation for a hell of a long time.

We don't really own anything though as we eventually die and property loses meaning except perhaps to pass it on to children as an inheritance.
Greed is good said Gecko, quite laughable when you see where this greed at the top of society has led us!

Those that support money would say that todays money isn't really money because it's just debt, they (debt notes) are issued at interest from private banks who have become a power unto themselves because government have outsourced this responsibility to the banks.

The Z3 movie at the end shows people throwing their money onto the street outside the banks..quite a moving spectacle but not really realistic. What should perhaps be considered first is what would be a tranitionary phase? What would make people come to an understanding about what money really is? Eg just a concept inside our heads? What would convince them to eventually abandon money?
This is a global thing really and a lot of other concepts depend on money for their existence.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:05 #5

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Guevarista wrote:
So say people have all their wealth in money, maybe £100,000 what would happen if you abolished all forms of currency, who would be abolishing the currency?
There'd be no reason for anybody to worry about having their 100k wiped out would there. They could still get everything they needed.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:07 #6

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Guevarista wrote:

So say people have all their wealth in money, maybe £100,000 what would happen if you abolished all forms of currency, who would be abolishing the currency?

The general average public have to learn to abolish it at a grass roots level, I don't see this idea ever coming from the top because its not in their interests to do so.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:18 #7

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dubmeup wrote:
There is absolutely nothing that we do now that we couldn't do if we abolished all forms of currency

Alvin Hall would be at a bit of a loose end.

9780754056645
Last Edit: 29 Jul 2012 22:18 by dogsmilk.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:21 #8

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And you couldn't do this.

AlexJonesMoneyBomb 410
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:21 #9

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Two excellent answers, key points so far;

We see the masses of people will have to abolish it, and we see that the process of production and labour will have to be revolutionized from an outdated economic exchange based system to a system based on providing for need.
"what is pro­posed here is noth­ing less than evo­lu­tion."

We also see there will be considerable opposition to the achievement of this aim.

I'm all ears guys.
The mean­ings that are the most directly prac­ti­cal are the ones that are sac­ri­ficed: the fla­vor, aroma and touch are abol­ished to the profit of the delu­sions that per­ma­nently lead sight and hear­ing astray.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:26 #10

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According to KOTG, this would lead to eugenics. :larf:
:werd:
Set the controls for the heart of the earth.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:29 #11

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Guevarista wrote:
Two excellent answers, key points so far;

We see the masses of people will have to abolish it, and we see that the process of production and labour will have to be revolutionized from an outdated economic exchange based system to a system based on providing for need.
"what is pro­posed here is noth­ing less than evo­lu­tion."

We also see there will be considerable opposition to the achievement of this aim.

I'm all ears guys.

Yes gue, for the evolution (which is in effect what it'd be) to take place, yourself and andy are right. It'd have to come from the masses. No way the money men are gonna suggest it :chuckle: You're bang on that production and labour would shift toward accommodating needs, though not necessarily exclusively so.

I think you're right that from here, there'd be massive opposition from the ground up. People would have pretty much all their fear buttons pressed at once. Once they were helped to understand that they could still have everything they needed, I could see that opposition falling away relatively quickly though tbh
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:31 #12

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andyh wrote:
Guevarista wrote:

So say people have all their wealth in money, maybe £100,000 what would happen if you abolished all forms of currency, who would be abolishing the currency?

The general average public have to learn to abolish it at a grass roots level, I don't see this idea ever coming from the top because its not in their interests to do so.

Well there might be some scope for profit in selling "abolish money" t-shirts to the abolish money demographic,.

Without money, they have nothing. All the power ultimately comes from money. It's crazy when you think about it. Like gold looks pretty and does have its pratical uses but at the end of the day it's just a slab of metal.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:31 #13

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dogsmilk wrote:
Alvin Hall would be at a bit of a loose end.

I'm sure he'd quite enjoy maybe writing on other subjects or perhaps contributing in an altogether different way :)
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:31 #14

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dogsmilk wrote:
And you couldn't do this.

AlexJonesMoneyBomb 410

lol thats a classic :D
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:32 #15

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Space Bandit wrote:
According to KOTG, this would lead to eugenics. :larf:
:werd:

And homosexuality, the destruction of the family and sex for pleasure that doesn't produce offspring?
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:35 #16

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dogsmilk wrote:
Without money, they have nothing. All the power ultimately comes from money. It's crazy when you think about it.
Bang on the money ;)
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:38 #17

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dubmeup wrote:
Guevarista wrote:
Two excellent answers, key points so far;

We see the masses of people will have to abolish it, and we see that the process of production and labour will have to be revolutionized from an outdated economic exchange based system to a system based on providing for need.
"what is pro­posed here is noth­ing less than evo­lu­tion."

We also see there will be considerable opposition to the achievement of this aim.

I'm all ears guys.

Yes gue, for the evolution (which is in effect what it'd be) to take place, yourself and andy are right. It'd have to come from the masses. No way the money men are gonna suggest it :chuckle: You're bang on that production and labour would shift toward accommodating needs, though not necessarily exclusively so.

I think you're right that from here, there'd be massive opposition from the ground up. People would have pretty much all their fear buttons pressed at once. Once they were helped to understand that they could still have everything they needed, I could see that opposition falling away relatively quickly though tbh

People are getting their fear buttons pressed right now funnily enough..
The labour+production aspect is covered really by looking at technological unemployment.
Robots are replacing workers and not just robots but more efficient company management methodology too which makes many jobs redundant.

We're also facing a demographic problem of a greying society in the west although its going to hit countries at varied speed.
Japan will probably be the first affected. The top heavy retirement age will make social welfare very difficult to maintain, also fewer births will make continued economic growth an impossibility...at least in countries where the fertility rate is below the replacement ratio.

IMHO the elite already know this and are making plans to change society to suit this new paradigm, as I've explained at length on DIF, I think that the economic takedown is deliberate to make way for a new economic system that they already have planned.

There is ofc the alternative view which is that the economic failure is something that is completely unplanned for and that the authorities really do have no solution for it, if this is the case then WW3 is probably the only outcome failing some kind of miraculous intervention somehow.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 22:54 #18

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If you're interested in this kind of idea then some of the stuff surrounding postmodern anarchism and post scarcity anarchism are most relevant imho.
I like Jacques Fresco a lot, he comes across as being quite genuine, just a shame Peter Joseph doesn't, although he has been trying to leave TZM to others.

I have to stress I would love to see an experimental proof of concept of Fresco's Venus Project put into action.
At least with some scientific proof a lot of people could be convinced.

A resource based society would be beneficial for all but a tiny fraction of 1% of the population at the top who like to fly around in personal jets, own several yachts, millions of acres etc. They are the only ones who would lose out but even they would stand to make quite significant spiritual gains.
“Fascists are not human. A snake is more human.” - Hugo Chávez
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 23:05 #19

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andyh wrote:
A resource based society would be beneficial for all but a tiny fraction of 1% of the population at the top who like to fly around in personal jets, own several yachts, millions of acres etc. They are the only ones who would lose out but even they would stand to make quite significant spiritual gains.
These are the people that would struggle most to come to terms with it I think. It's not the case that people would have to go without. Everyone could have a good standard of living with no small amount of luxury. It's not as if a return to the stone age is needed (ok KOTG may have a problem then). What would be needed is acceptance of a few simple concepts. Concepts which are entirely natural and already present in our collective mind. Such as co-operation, contentment and community.

As you've hinted at andy, we could ALL become far more leisurely than we are now. We could have a new slave class if we required/desired. It already exists in the form of machines. Technological unemployment would in the absence of money, be no bad thing per se. I for one would still want to do work, just not as much perhaps. I'm sure that I wouldn't be alone in that. I actually quite enjoy working.
Obviously there would be issues with some feeling they were getting a shitty end of the stick, if they currently do a shitty job they'd quite fairly not continue to do so. If this left holes in the fabric of what NEEDS to be done, I'm sure a race that had evolved far enough to ditch currency could attend to issues like that.

I'm not suggesting the transition would be without it's challenges but it would certainly be do-able if the desire was there.
Last Edit: 29 Jul 2012 23:08 by dubs.
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Re: Money is totally unnecessary 29 Jul 2012 23:32 #20

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dubmeup wrote:
andyh wrote:
Technological unemployment would in the absence of money, be no bad thing per se. I for one would still want to do work, just not as much perhaps. I'm sure that I wouldn't be alone in that. I actually quite enjoy working.
.

Most labour that is performed is utterly redundant in a Maslow's hierarchy of need stylee - the things we actually need to the things that give us fulfillment - banjos, MP3 players, the complete works of Shakespeare and the like. We don't need ;lots of people telephining us to ask us if we need a new kitchen. And if you abandon the impetus to flog us moretat, you should consume less. Aside from things like computers, most things should last a long time. Take a sofa - a well constructed sofa should last for years on end. Ecept people are encouraged they need a swish new MFI sofa. Or a washing machine - there is no reason it should not last 10-20 years. These things used to. But if they break after about two you need to buy another. Which wastes resources in the pursuit of profit. And wastes labour. Advertising, marketing, all that stuff - it doesn't actually do anything useful.
But people need jobs to support themselves and people without jobs create problems because they can't. I think socialistic policies kinda help in that environment just by protecting people from it - like the NHS and state benefits for example. But they do not solve the problem, they mitigate the effects. It's giving a sick man a painkiller. That's fine to dull the pain, but it doesn't cure the ailment.
Take away the need for people to earn money to live and take away the need to perform useless labour so they can earn money to live and Bob's your uncle. Like you said, a lot of pepole enjoy work. They enjoy it more if they feel it's positive and not just working for the man to make ends meet. Even with Andy's self employment thing, that still arises from a need to earn money and people might e.g. face the prospect of their business collapsing and their house repossessed. Take away the FEAR of the yawning chasm of financial ruin and thing of the stress that alleviates.

But then how is Bono going to justify having an enormous mansion just from making pop music?

Last Edit: 29 Jul 2012 23:35 by dogsmilk.
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